I seek therefore I shall find.

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Re: I seek therefore I shall find.

Postby Serpent on January 17th, 2020, 10:12 pm 

JohnD » January 17th, 2020, 6:45 pm wrote:...
Maybe I'm suffering from some form of delusional lunacy but I get to feel there's something wrong with it all. Life isn't supposed to be like this, not for any of us!

You're not alone. Most people have never made the connection between capitalism (growth economy) and quality of the environment. Most of the visible damage has been "somewhere else" and attributable to "something else", while the proponents of growth economy invariably cite rising standard of living -- without too critical an examination of the criteria by which that standard is measured -- and give predatory international policies credit for alleviating some of the problems it's caused, and deflecting the blame onto "shithole countries".
We're at the point now where an alcoholic can no longer ignore the ravages of cirrhosis, is drinking to dull the pain and claiming hepatitis from when he stepped on seashell in Antigua in 1997.
The kids have to take over the fight; it's their world in peril.
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Re: I seek therefore I shall find.

Postby JohnD on January 25th, 2020, 2:21 am 

What I fear most is that they don't fully know or understand. Most of what we the past have done or built is wrong and needs to be pulled down. I don't say this lightly as I know we pride what we have, the statues, buildings, roads... However, I realise that everything we do has a price. Every road we build cuts a path through some creatures territory. Every building evicts thousands that already occupy the land.
Science tells us that nature has a balance and these things we do disturb that balance. We are at a stage with all the damage we have caused where the planet is in danger of being lost to all of us, creature and man alike.
We need to change yet all I hear is talk of economy and banks investing in coal fired power stations to keep it all going. In my eyes its all madness. We go round and round in circles doing the same again and again and blaming everything and everyone else.
Politicians backed by big business say it's all politics and not real. That we can keep going with minor changes only but we know we need to do more than that. Through Science we know, or should know, that 8 billion people on this planet are way too many and we desparately need to wind the clock back, but we can't.
Don't get me wrong I believe in and am all for the people so I don't desire to see anything happen to anyone. So we must find a way to accommodate our people and at the same time make amends for what has been. That means extremely progressive thinking with utilisation of the most advanced science that to some extent has possible not been invented yet.
It's sad to think that this is the legacy we leave future generations. Yes, it's all up to the children to take up the cause however, will they know which cause to follow? What are we really telling them?
On current media reports we believe everything is fine and we're doing our best to save all creatures. In reality we're always looking for new ways to divert nature while causing more problems along the way. I dread that we will one day go to another planet and do the same there.
If life was a Netflix show we'd all real in horror and sadly would probably make Top 10 of all time greatest shows.
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Re: I seek therefore I shall find.

Postby Serpent on January 25th, 2020, 2:03 pm 

JohnD » January 25th, 2020, 1:21 am wrote:What I fear most is that they don't fully know or understand.

Which they? The general public is dazzled by electronic toys - and simply do not stop to think how much energy it takes to binge-watch Breaking Bad and send pictures of their lunch https://e360.yale.edu/features/energy-hogs-can-huge-data-centers-be-made-more-efficient
That's largely down to selfish indifference, not lack of information.
But there is plenty of misinformation and professional disinformation to confuse them, as well.

Most of what we the past have done or built is wrong and needs to be pulled down.

That's a whole new problem, of course. Have you ever watched those reality shows about renovating houses? Smash! Crash! Fill the dumpster! --- Then what? We have an awful lot of waste already.

However, I realise that everything we do has a price.

It would have been good to calculate the cost/benefit ratio before undertaking each project. Does this dead dictator need to be commemorated in quite so much bronze? Couldn't we just, like, carve on a post: "Here lies Franco, thank God." ? I'd like to repurpose those tall glass money-laundries in the center of every city as vertical hydroponic farms. Save a lot of landfill.
There is some movement toward sustainable building https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2020/1/15/21058051/climate-change-building-materials-mass-timber-cross-laminated-clt, eco-sensitive expansion... but the expansion still continues, and the environment has powerful enemies
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jan/17/donald-trump-environment-epa-climate-second-term
We could ask what the cost of that byoootiful wall will be in the long term - but we already know it's horrific https://www.brookings.edu/essay/the-wall-the-real-costs-of-a-barrier-between-the-united-states-and-mexico/, and that we can't stop it.

We need to change yet all I hear is talk of economy

That's been the central "issue" of the last fifty years: Economy vs Environment (your money or your life) and the economy wins almost every face-off. Because people are short-sighted; because career politicians live in a fantasy world, where wishes are horses*.
What we are not told, but should be able to figure out for ourselves, is that money is no use to dead people. A little harder, but not wholly unthinkable, is the idea of an economy organized on different - less destructive - principles. Could have been done at any time; could have been changed gradually; many efforts have been made, some quite successful -- but the backlash is fearsome. Greed is a ruthless, implacable enemy.
(* I've just thought this; it feels viscerally true. Is it?)

and banks investing in coal fired power stations to keep it all going. In my eyes its all madness.

From one perspective, yes. Not from theirs: money comes from all directions https://www.globalresearch.ca/the-new-water-barons-wall-street-mega-banks-are-buying-up-the-worlds-water/5383274 just like handing out mortgages to people who can't pay the interest, then writing off the loss of expected revenue as if it were money they already owned, then raking in the bailout from the taxes of the same people they've rendered homeless, then handing out short-term high-interest loans to the speculators who buy those repos for flipping; filling dumpsters with perfectly sound, but unfashionable windows and countertops). The Economy thrives! (The world chokes on garbage and debt.)

Don't get me wrong I believe in and am all for the people so I don't desire to see anything happen to anyone.

You're a better Samaritan than I am, JohnD! I desire much harm to many, that the rest may begin to recover from their influence.

So we must find a way to accommodate our people and at the same time make amends for what has been. That means extremely progressive thinking with utilisation of the most advanced science that to some extent has possible not been invented yet.

Impossible. Because we are mad, really, as a species. Somehow the combination of high cognitive ability got entangled with overactive imagination and we cannot separate reality from dreams.

Yes, it's all up to the children to take up the cause however, will they know which cause to follow? What are we really telling them?

It doesn't matter what we tell them. They will listen to whatever they choose to hear, just as we did.

I dread that we will one day go to another planet and do the same there.

As do all forward thinking humans. Witness the history of SF over the past century.
You know what's even funnier? How alike are the utopias of literature: you'd think people have a quite common idea of what good life is - and yet we keep making the exact opposite.
Idea to ponder : "He bought the farm."
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Re: I seek therefore I shall find.

Postby JohnD on January 25th, 2020, 6:48 pm 

Serpent » 26 Jan 2020, 04:03 wrote:Greed is a ruthless, implacable enemy.
(* I've just thought this; it feels viscerally true. Is it?)

Greed is what it has been called for thousands of years and it might be a simple enough explanation however it has many contacts throughout society. It is difficult and convenient to point to any single person and say they're at fault, get rid of them and the rest will be good. It's altruistic and unreal yet is the way we have always viewed right and wrong.
Look at society and how it is shaped and 'progress' comes from individuals who may be doing the same job for many years and realise a different way of doing the same job. The other side is ambition, those looking for a quick way up the ladder. Nowadays large companies have formalised this by having research and development teams looking at this on a daily basis.
The difficulty in stopping the rot in our society isn't always about stopping the big guns though they're obvious targets, it's about changing people's minds, changing the way people view economics and progress. After a time people accept what is as being what should be and stop seeking an alternative rather look to progress from whatever point they're at.
From the time we built the first city we have accepted that living in a city is the way forward maybe because of the benefits it offered. After a while instead of looking for alternatives we looked for ways to improve our new found society.
When looking at dictators it is mindful to think that there was a whole nation that followed them. They had an ideal as all people do, as we can see in politics today. Of course there is repression involved, Trump calls it false news, Marcos made people disappear, the US wants to extradite and jail Julian Assange, every leader uses words or physical actions to suppress opposition. It's a part of the political system, you need to be seen to talk louder than the opposition.
I live in what so far has been a quite suburb. Yesterday I saw plans of what our government has in mind for our little suburb. The intention is for the population to somewhere near double with apartments being permitted accross the street from us. Of course, this is a quick fix solution to a world problem of overcrowding and ultimately will cause more problems than it solves. I am expecting property prices will possibly double before and during the transformation. Apartments these days are expensive, ordicary people find it difficult to afford them. Added to this there will be added traffic and congestion not only cars but from people living in close proximity. Poorer air quality, more rubbish being created, extra shops with extra goods. And no change to attitude or habits.
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Re: I seek therefore I shall find.

Postby JohnD on January 25th, 2020, 8:17 pm 

Today is Australia Day, a day we celebrate the 'first settlers' who set about denying and destroying the indigenous population. Did you know Australia had approximately 500 different languages before white settlement and to this day we still officially only recognise one supplanted language, English. At the same time we in our suburbs cut our lawns and polish our doorknobs in complete denial of what we continue to do and what has been done in our name.
This is society, it's what its all about, we can't deny it and we can't ignore it as hard as we try.
Tell me, when we look at dictators and how awful they are who do we compare them to? To a people that poisoned rivers and watering holes in order to wipe out the indigenous population? Everywhere we have been and attempted to 'colonise' we have used subversive tactics to subdue and even wipe out the local population. We do it with people and we do it with animals. We build cities on migration paths of animals or even within their territory, we don't see any necessity to ask, then when they come back at us we kill them and say it's because they would kill us.
We need to change. Change not only what we do but how we do it. We need to listen and understand before we act. Their is a way to nature, a natural balance then when disturbed can have devastating effects. Above all we must appreciate that every living creature is a life unto its own and deserves respect and the right to live its own life.
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Re: I seek therefore I shall find.

Postby Serpent on January 25th, 2020, 8:44 pm 

JohnD » January 25th, 2020, 5:48 pm wrote:Greed is what it has been called for thousands of years and it might be a simple enough explanation however it has many contacts throughout society. It is difficult and convenient to point to any single person and say they're at fault, get rid of them and the rest will be good. It's altruistic and unreal yet is the way we have always viewed right and wrong.

Sorry about the juxtaposition of those two ideas. The second was of politicians - of all stripes - mentioned earlier. The asterisk was an afterthought on edit.)
Greed is, indeed ruthless, but I never said it resides in particular individuals. It's in all living things - even creatures of very little brain want more than they need. I once had a pet squirrel, spoiled rotten from infancy, given all the nuts she could possibly want, who invariably tried to take one more than she was able to carry. She would keep rearranging two in her mouth and the one clutched against her chest and trying to pick up one more. That's a vignette of intelligent life. Nature has been so stingy for so long; so many creatures have starved over the last 90,000,000 years, that the spectre of want haunts all of us: we have evolved the instinct that prompts us to get all we can, while we can: the psychology of more.
Now, a sane animal like Georgie the squirrel soon realizes that juggling won't work and turns to the next most practical plan: hide them quick and hurry back for more. Sometimes they forget where they buried the extras - not always securely. (Georgie would sometimes tuck one under the cat's bushy tail or in my shoe) They don't let the accumulation of nuts take over their lives; other drives, instincts and desires balance it out. Though they'll steal from, or even fight a rival, they don't go into a funk if another squirrel gets more.
And most humans are equally sane: if they can get enough, they'll try to get a little more for winter, but it won't take over their lives: they have other preoccupations.
There are a few, however, for whom "enough" is an alien concept. This is one of our more pervasive insanities. It's not a mental illness: the affected individuals are rational, logical and methodical. That's what makes them so dangerous. They are able to convince others to give to them and defer to them. They are able to form alliances not only among their fellow greedies, but also with those suffering from the other two major insanities: power-lust (the need to dominate others) and narcissim (the need to be adored) Those three groups of crazies tend to rule all civilizations -- simply because they are the people who want to rule, need to rule, have nothing in their lives so intensely urgent as their desire to rule. And they can organize the whole society to serve their desire.

The difficulty in stopping the rot in our society isn't always about stopping the big guns though they're obvious targets, it's about changing people's minds, changing the way people view economics and progress.

If you want to stop a robot, disconnect it from the control-panel. The "big guns" control education, communications, information, culture and the distribution of necessities, as well as the economy and organs of public discipline. People who are anxious, on the edge of ruin, constantly beset by challenges, threats and stresses, bombarded by conflicting information do not think clearly. They tend to believe whatever is easiest, most relevant to their interface with the world, or simply familiar through repetition.
Their thinking won't change unless they're first free of domination by the crazies so they have the time and security for reflection, and then are presented with a viable alternative - one that even the simplest can see is viable.
After a time people accept what is as being what should be and stop seeking an alternative rather look to progress from whatever point they're at.

Where they're at is a very isolated, powerless kind of place. You're tired and the shift has two more hours to go. Meanwhile, your daughter wants to get married, the boys are on the street, getting into who-knows what trouble, there's a rumour your apartment building will be converted to condos, your hands are freezing cold, the chicken carcasses keep coming down the assembly line and if you can't gut them even faster, you'll be replaced by an immigrant and lose your whole family's health insurance.
Which phrase reverberates in that worker's head? yup - replaced by an immigrant
When is she going to worry about glaciers in some whole other country? Saturday evening, watching a documentary half-asleep, for about two minutes before the younger boy switches over to a film about exploding cars, his older brother wants to watch football, the girl is crying because her boyfriend didn't call and she's trying to scrape up the energy to make dinner.

From the time we built the first city we have accepted that living in a city is the way forward maybe because of the benefits it offered. After a while instead of looking for alternatives we looked for ways to improve our new found society.

Some have; most were just trying to survive from one day to the next. Most humans, like all animals, are driven by fear. The fear of imminent harm motivates us to action. The threat of eventual harm is abstract; it doesn't set off an action trigger. The guy knew he was on a railway track; he knew trains travel on that track. His shoelaces came undone and he was afraid of tripping on them - never heard the train coming.
I heard it lots of times, when it still far away. Finally quit smoking on the ?seventh attempt the day before my radiation treatments began.

Did you know Australia had approximately 500 different languages before white settlement and to this day we still officially only recognise one supplanted language, English.
I didn't know how many. Knew it was a lot like Canada - but at least we're up by one official settler language. And we are, sort of, slowly coming to terms with indigenous peoples.
One of our clear thinkers https://www.johnralstonsaul.com/non-fiction-books/ has been dealing with this national blot, among other problems of civilization, for quite some time.

We need to change. Change not only what we do but how we do it. We need to listen and understand before we act. Their is a way to nature, a natural balance then when disturbed can have devastating effects. Above all we must appreciate that every living creature is a life unto its own and deserves respect and the right to live its own life.

Ay-yup. After the collapse.
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Re: I seek therefore I shall find.

Postby Serpent on January 25th, 2020, 9:11 pm 

I'm not sure it's appropriate to wish you a Happy Australia Day or Sad Transport Day --
How about : A fire-free cool day.
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Re: I seek therefore I shall find.

Postby JohnD on January 25th, 2020, 10:56 pm 

All three seem appropriate
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Re: I seek therefore I shall find.

Postby JohnD on January 25th, 2020, 10:57 pm 

Maybe if the government employed more indigenous people as rangers throughout the country we would worry less about bushfires.
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Re: I seek therefore I shall find.

Postby Serpent on January 26th, 2020, 12:01 am 

Too little too late - like most or all climate-change action.
Good thought, though.
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Re: I seek therefore I shall find.

Postby JohnD on January 26th, 2020, 12:23 am 

Very true. Fact is most of us know that over the years, especially the early ones, towns and farms were allowed to take hold in areas where they didn't belong. The case of most governments along the way has been 'opening of new lands for farming and settlements'. No thought about environment. The scenario is the same today, new housing projects have been opening up everywhere, many in areas where they don't belong. Now, after the latest fires some are saying that building should be banned in some of the affected areas, yet people are doing everything they can to get back what they had. The government, at least for the moment, seem to be lost and just shelling money out to whomsoever needs it. They're not admitting that climate change has anything to do with it rather they're looking to set up a royal commission to look at the mechanics of cause and effect, and how to better handle it in the future.
Further rather than placing the greatest effort and money into land rehabilitation and animal rescue they're giving money to tourist companies to bring back tourism to the areas.
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Re: I seek therefore I shall find.

Postby Serpent on January 26th, 2020, 1:01 am 

So -- same old economy vs ecology meme? Figures.
It''s a mind-set they can't seem to wake up from. Remember, they are all products of the capitalist...
What pervades everything you touch, eat, drink, breathe, think, dream and do?
...?miasma...?pandemic...?alternate universe
They can only scramble for replacement $$$ for what they have to shell out to stave off economic disaster....
squat down to tie their shoelaces

Meanwhile, our government is wrestling with the dilemma of an oil pipeline they've already bought and are committed to, even though it was a bad idea from the get-go, a disaster waiting to happen - and Alberta's Economic Lifeline....
...if the Chinese will buy their scummy oil, in spite of being ticked-off at us....
for arresting one of their tech pirates who committed no crime on Canadian soil,
but the Mad Bossman next door wanted to lock-her-up...
...but, hey, at least she got to languish in her luxury condo and he didn't hire a Ukranian hit-man to take her out...
Funny ol' world, innit?
Where is God whn you need Him? Ah!
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Re: I seek therefore I shall find.

Postby JohnD on January 26th, 2020, 1:10 am 

On holiday until Easter.
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Re: I seek therefore I shall find.

Postby JohnD on January 26th, 2020, 1:23 am 

It's what depresses me more and more these days. They must know what is causing our current catastrophe and what is required to be done, Lord knows we've all talked about it long enough, yet they act like they wouldn't have a clue and do the exact opposite to what is required. And now I feel we're right back where I started.
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Re: I seek therefore I shall find.

Postby Serpent on January 26th, 2020, 1:54 am 

Seek and ye shall find.
Knock and the door shall be opened.
Ask and it shall be given and the Love come a trick-e-lin down...
Sometimes the answer is NO.
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Re: I seek therefore I shall find.

Postby JohnD on January 26th, 2020, 2:39 am 

Praise the Lord, I don't see any light.
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Re: I seek therefore I shall find.

Postby JohnD on January 26th, 2020, 5:00 pm 

John Stuart Mill, in an address at the University of St. Andrews in 1867: "Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends than that good men should look on and do nothing."
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Re: I seek therefore I shall find.

Postby Serpent on January 26th, 2020, 7:20 pm 

Good and bad men were easier to differentiate in 1857 - about 6 billion people (of which more than half are women now - they hadn't been invented back then), a couple of hundred philosophers, a hundred thousand scientists, 2 C degrees and 120 nations easier.
That's not even to mention the questionable moral yardsticks/metersticks used by the intellectuals who did the classifying.
Pithy is all right... But the world really is quite a lot more complicated than it was in the 19th century, and it was quite a lot more complicated then than European gentlemen supposed. It's quite amazing how much of it still tends to be discounted by modern English-speakers and Europeans.
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Re: I seek therefore I shall find.

Postby TheVat on January 26th, 2020, 7:32 pm 

Simon Wiesenthal seems to have rephrased Mill's remark, later. He famously said

"For evil to flourish, it only requires good men to do nothing."

Wiesenthal seemed to have some familiarity with some forms of evil.

We need to shift more towards a society where it's held to be important to discuss innovations, technologies, economic measures, etc. with a sharp focus on daily life, how minds and bodies are affected, what spiritual fallout may ensue. And discuss BEFORE the changes are so embedded and institutionalized that there's no remedy. So long as oligarchs run things and control conversations (or if conversations may even happen), most people end up serving capitalism, function as consumer units of technology, and have no breathing room to question "productivity."

I admire the young activists like Greta who are speaking truth to power and getting the coming generation so riled up about taking better care of Earth and each other. If I see anyone trying to squash their spirit and their initiative, I promise you I won't be sitting idly by.

A provocative (of thought) and informative and highly literate thread.
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Re: I seek therefore I shall find.

Postby JohnD on January 26th, 2020, 9:46 pm 

'The Vat' the quote has oft been used and misused and attribute to so many including Jefferson however whichever version you are familiar with it is pertinent to the situation we find ourselves in.
'Serpent' weather life is more complicated or not doesn't mean we sit back holding on to our frustrations. Personally, I find life can be complicated no matter the period, it is how we choose to view it.
Fact of the matter is we all need to discuss every aspect of what is and what needs to be done and see about setting up steps for action to be realised.
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Re: I seek therefore I shall find.

Postby JohnD on January 26th, 2020, 11:20 pm 

I'm 65 encroaching on 66. My most prominent thoughts in my personal life are about retirement and what happens next. I've a choice of keeping working if I wish, which I shall have to seeing as a pension won't keep me going. That's disappointing as in the past people could feasably stop working if they wished. At the same time I look around me and listen to the news and listen to people in desparate situations and I know better could be done. People may not always think about the politics of what is happening however they are aware of what needs to be done. It usually amounts to frustrations regarding what they can actually do. We have a government who continuously tell people "what's the point of doing anything if everyone else in the world is allowed to pollute at will." It's one of the many adages people hear when what is really happening is we have a government who believe that bowing to the needs of the enviroment will interfere with established business practices.
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Re: I seek therefore I shall find.

Postby Serpent on January 27th, 2020, 12:33 am 

The Vat -- I admire the young activists like Greta who are speaking truth to power and getting the coming generation so riled up about taking better care of Earth and each other. If I see anyone trying to squash their spirit and their initiative, I promise you I won't be sitting idly by.

Me too. Also Jane Fonda and a lot of brave people with celebrity credentials. I think of it as a chance for oldsters to support their grandkids and piss of their kids.
You don't often see somebody telling it like it really is, without fear or favour or ulterior motive. She's some little inspiring firebrand! The French had one of those, a while back... They didn't treat her well.

JohnD -- the quote has oft been used and misused and attribute to so many including Jefferson however whichever version you are familiar with it is pertinent to the situation we find ourselves in.

Sure, it's always true. My problem is with the designations and who gets to make them according to what criteria.
'Serpent' weather life is more complicated or not doesn't mean we sit back holding on to our frustrations.

Life isn't more or less complicated. Life is always simple. The world of politics and economics is complicated by more people needing more things, wanting to do things different ways and having more challenges to deal with.
The question of right and wrong, good and bad has never been as simple as ideologues would have it.
"For evil to flourish, it only requires good men to do nothing."

Ya, okay, so what, precisely, should good men be doing?
No issue has ever really boiled down to a slogan that fits on a bumper-sticker or teeshirt and no man has ever been entirely good or altogether bad.
(Nor woman neither, though by your smiling you seem to say so)
“The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.”

Really? Which is which?
Fact of the matter is we all need to discuss every aspect of what is and what needs to be done and see about setting up steps for action to be realised.

No argument.

(Apologies for all the non-sequiturs, by the way - didn't think anyone else was looking. Should know better by now. The Vat knows. )
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Re: I seek therefore I shall find.

Postby JohnD on January 27th, 2020, 2:03 am 

Serpent be assured I shall never tire of your redirections. The point of the quote was not about good and bad, a concept I don't understand very well. It's a matter that no matter what each think of the politics or science being used there is a time for action and though I don't believe the world will end tomorrow I do see an opportunity for the world to change direction and the best time for that to be done is now. There is no doubt that as present those in power hold the reigns and that is why, as has been done time and again in history, we must rest that power away from them. History shows us it is only when they see power being taken away from them that they look to support the action desired from below their golden bleeches.
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Re: I seek therefore I shall find.

Postby Serpent on January 27th, 2020, 12:58 pm 

JohnD » January 27th, 2020, 1:03 am wrote:Serpent be assured I shall never tire of your redirections. The point of the quote was not about good and bad, a concept I don't understand very well. It's a matter that no matter what each think of the politics or science being used there is a time for action and though I don't believe the world will end tomorrow I do see an opportunity for the world to change direction and the best time for that to be done is now. There is no doubt that as present those in power hold the reigns and that is why, as has been done time and again in history, we must rest that power away from them. History shows us it is only when they see power being taken away from them that they look to support the action desired from below their golden bleeches.

I wasn't trying to redirect, and I do agree with the sentiment.
My argument was with a simplistic POV that presupposes the existence of some unified "we" who all regard the same things as being good or bad. That's simply not true of the world I've experienced.
I do approve of the action taken by demonstrators (all kinds - I used to do a bit of marching in my more mobile youth - never got arrested or beaten, just wet).
I do support The Leap and did vote for the Green Party*
we must rest that power away from them

This is my problem. Who are "we" and what specific sequence of actions is required of "us"?
History shows us it is only when they see power being taken away from them that they look to support the action desired from below their golden bleeches.

History also shows us how "they" generally respond to any threat to their power. Lots and lots of people die. Even more people suffer loss, grief, privation, terror; are displaced and divested of their worldly goods. Nobody counts the animals who fall collateral damage or the landscapes that are devastated. Challenging established power-structures is an undertaking fraught with peril.
While the present palace of cards must certainly topple, and will inevitably crush more innocent bystanders than perpetrators, and will leave a behind a long trail of hardship and struggle, I would still rather see it fall under its own weight than in a bloody civil war.

*I respect Elizabeth May, even though she missed a golden opportunity during one of the public debates. Asked "What do we have to give up?", she answered "Nothing." That wasn't entirely honest, which she usually is. But more importantly, it was a chance to say: "We have to give up waste."
One of the hallmarks of capitalism is its horrendous wastefulness. Starting with the nuclear bombs and trickling all the way down to the scraping of restaurant plates. From the extraction of raw materials to the replacement of unfashionable handbags, at every step of labour recruitment, production facilities, manufacturing, packaging, distribution and consumption, we create mountains of garbage.
A capitalist economy thrives on debt and waste. Very few popular media broadcasts ever mention this.
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Re: I seek therefore I shall find.

Postby JohnD on January 27th, 2020, 3:51 pm 

I agree, war is messy and many lives are lost. However, we have a lot more available to us today than has ever been the case at any time in our past. We have the tools in social media to be able to rally the people and manifest an action plan. It is an action plan that includes educating people about unnecessary renewal of goods to satisfy a capitalist view of fashion. When I speak of action I don't mean people with guns on the street, I agree that this rarely achieves anything more than numerous unnecessary deaths. We is the people, we is anyone who is interested and who realises that waste is everywhere, we is everyone in science who is interested in the environment and climate change. We is anyone who realises that we live under a false economy fueled by waste and debt.
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Re: I seek therefore I shall find.

Postby Serpent on January 27th, 2020, 5:32 pm 

JohnD » January 27th, 2020, 2:51 pm wrote:... We have the tools in social media to be able to rally the people and manifest an action plan.

So have they. And they are in a far better position to manipulate and control it than we do. Political regimes can not only disseminate a lot more propaganda, a lot more widely, than we the little people can communicate among ourselves, but also influence and direct elections, spy on all of us all the time, make the communications unaffordable to the majority of us - or shut it down altogether.

It is an action plan that includes educating people about unnecessary renewal of goods to satisfy a capitalist view of fashion.

Oh, they have a contingency plan for that, too: built-in obsolescence, plug-in components, technical overcomplication: the product breaks down on schedule (which is gaged to the typical consumer's financial ability to replace it) and cannot be repaired without replacing critical components, which after a predetermined time, become unavailable, so that you have to buy a new one.
As to fashion, some young people are starting to catch on; commercial brainwashing doesn't work as well as it once did, but the prosperous nations' middle-class is still incredibly gullible, insecure and vain.
Whatever they're losing on fashion consumer goods, they rake in on addictive substances: the more anxious we are, the more we self-medicate -- not that there is a shortage of doctors willing to overmedicate us.

It would take a serious, well-orchestrated, world-wide austerity-strike (Buy Nothing Day, writ very much larger) Don't think good people, smart people, well-informed and caring people haven't been trying - for years and decades - to do what you advocate.
https://www.adbusters.org/
https://leapmanifesto.org/en/the-leap-manifesto/
https://www.thevenusproject.com/
Many of us have been writing, talking, voting, working and changing our own habits, for quite a long time.
But it wasn't enough, isn't enough. There is no longer time for mingy little tweaks to individual lifestyles - especially as we're all still hostage to the economic system we cannot control. We can't get anywhere near the armed forces budgets - and the arms industry's capability. We can't regulate air transport, oil extraction, offshoring of manufactury.
We could maybe reduce our data footprints (I have no other 'devices', have never sent a photograph of my meals, cats or junk, never transfer money and limit streaming entertainment to bandwith left over from business use and Microsofts goddam automated update dumps). We could maybe get cured of bathroom-addiction. (We have two, because this was originally a duplex, but only use one; my daughter, husband and two children have five bathrooms in their house.) Nobody needs that many baths, showers, shaves, delousings and beautifications!
But
The kind of change that could still save this planet for habitation would have to be massive, radical and global. I see no indication of that happening without a revolution - and maybe not even with.

When I speak of action I don't mean people with guns on the street, I agree that this rarely achieves anything more than numerous unnecessary deaths.

But that's what it always comes to when wethepeople get close to acquiring power.
Many of us are not terribly bright and most of us are crazy, and they know how to harness craziness and stupidity. If we learned how to do that, we'd never need to drill another hole!
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Re: I seek therefore I shall find.

Postby JohnD on January 28th, 2020, 2:58 am 

The road is hard and far from paved with gold. What it takes is a concerted world-wide effort. It is an option we all have give up and say its hopeless or try to do something. The more people from all parts of the world making their voices heard the harder it becomes to shut anyone down.
I know there have been and are others and each of those groups have very much flown solo however, they have had an effect. In Australia disposable plastic bags have been banned in all states and most garbage is recycled (sadly China doesn't want our recycling anymore.
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Re: I seek therefore I shall find.

Postby Serpent on January 28th, 2020, 11:33 am 

Nobody wants anybody's recycling anymore. It takes more energy and makes more pollution to ship garbage across oceans (Who thought that was ever a good idea?!!) sort, store and turn it into something useful, then ship it back again to sell in a rich country that's already overstocked with consumer goods, than to stop making all that waste in the first place.
The Philippines has been returning our garbage to sender - at considerable expense, headache and disruption to whale migration.
When I was young, we took milk and pop bottles back to the store.
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Re: I seek therefore I shall find.

Postby JohnD on January 28th, 2020, 3:47 pm 

Ah the good old days. Those were the days in our household when we didn't waste anything. Food never went into the bin as only enough was ever cooked and we ate it regardless of what we thought of the recipe because it was considered wrong to waste anything. Unfortunately, over the years and especially with the growth of the fast food industry we came to believe that it is just as easy to go out and buy some food. So, now waste is an issue as we have adopted a consumer society.
Clarification: earlier when I said most garbage is recycled this isn't exactly so. All garbage goes to the tip (land fill) however it goes presorted by households into different bins. No one really knows what happens to it when it gets there. I have been to our local and seen the separated bays for the different classifications of rubbish but what happens beyond that point depends on what contracts are in place.
Of course as you say Serpent the rubbish should be happening to start with and we should be more efficient long before it gets to end user stage.
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Re: I seek therefore I shall find.

Postby parsoff on January 28th, 2020, 3:55 pm 

Someone at NASA seeks and find a meteorite that will clash with the Earth. He can calculate where the impact will be and that is on the south pole. So you seek and find that you need to move out of the south pole on the day of the impact. So by seeking you find a possibility you otherwise would not find.
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