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soccer digress

Postby Serpent on July 7th, 2019, 10:54 am 

I started a long answer, lost it by hitting some random key. Will decide whether to abandon or retry, after the American women defeat the Dutch women. (football) I wouldn't normally root for the USA, especially after that shameful exhibition in the match with Thailand, but I would dearly love to see them refuse an invitation to the White House.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Lozza on July 7th, 2019, 10:56 am 

What sport?
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Re: soccer digress

Postby Serpent on July 7th, 2019, 4:23 pm 

(football)
FIFA Women's World Cup. Australia qualified but fell out in the second round. Canada lost to Sweden, who went on to finish second. https://sports.yahoo.com/soccer/world-cup/standings/ USA won. They played a great game and deserved that second goal. The first was a penalty kick on a bad call.
I`m in no way a sports fan; the only other event I watch is show jumping. However, it was impossible to be a child in Europe without playing soccer, so I'm somewhat familiar and this is the international league - quality matches. My partner ghost-coaches at the screen and I yell at the VAR (video assisted referee) for bad rulings. The family that swears at tv together...
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Re: soccer digress

Postby SciameriKen on July 8th, 2019, 8:49 am 

I think people are a bit hard on the women for that Thailand thing. First points matter - if they tied the other two teams in the bracket and those teams run it up higher on Thailand then the US team would go home. also perhaps celebrating each goal was a bit excessive - but in some cases then players were the bench warmers so to score for the first time on that stage has to be exciting
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Re: soccer digress

Postby Serpent on July 8th, 2019, 9:22 am 

SciameriKen » July 8th, 2019, 7:49 am wrote:I think people are a bit hard on the women for that Thailand thing. First points matter - if they tied the other two teams in the bracket and those teams run it up higher on Thailand then the US team would go home. also perhaps celebrating each goal was a bit excessive - but in some cases then players were the bench warmers so to score for the first time on that stage has to be exciting

We understand about the points - though I, personally, don't consider that a particularly good rule.
But it's not like the US had to worry about making every point count: they came in as one of the strongest teams, if the not the hands-down favourite. It's no secret the US has a huge and diverse population from which to recruit excellent players, and lots of money to develop their team, so they start with a big advantage over every country except maybe the well-off countries of Europe.
The gloating was excessive. How excited should one get over beating a much weaker opponent?
For those of us brought up on the tenets of good sportsmanship (grace in defeat, humility in victory, respect for the referee, courtesy toward rivals, generosity toward the weak) it was embarrassing to watch - like somebody brought their uncouth child to a formal dinner.
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Re: soccer digress

Postby Lozza on July 9th, 2019, 8:57 am 

Serpent » July 8th, 2019, 7:23 am wrote:(football)
FIFA Women's World Cup. Australia qualified but fell out in the second round. Canada lost to Sweden, who went on to finish second. https://sports.yahoo.com/soccer/world-cup/standings/ USA won. They played a great game and deserved that second goal. The first was a penalty kick on a bad call.
I`m in no way a sports fan; the only other event I watch is show jumping. However, it was impossible to be a child in Europe without playing soccer, so I'm somewhat familiar and this is the international league - quality matches. My partner ghost-coaches at the screen and I yell at the VAR (video assisted referee) for bad rulings. The family that swears at tv together...


Haha! There's a few sports I like to watch...MotoGP, Barhurst 12 Hour, Olympics both Summer and Winter, Rugby League and I can tolerate some One Day Cricket...got the World Cup on atm with India giving New Zealand a master class. I like the athleticism, skills, tactics, risks and those "sporting moments" that range from epic fails to tearful inspiration. I'm a committed ghost-coach and my TV has taken out an AVO on me...I'm not allowed to yell at it within 50 paces.

Not a fan of soccer...if I want to watch 22 blokes failing to score over two hours, I can see that anywhere there are 22 blokes in a room full of women...any bar...lol...jokes aside, I'm not a fan of how penalties are "milked" at the elite level and how commonplace it has become. I used to like tennis, but there was a lengthy period where there were players like Boom Boom Becker, Ivan Lendle and Pete Sampras that were just machines and it was a power game only. Federer and Nadal have brought finesse back to the sport, but it's kinda lost me.
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Re: soccer digress

Postby Serpent on July 9th, 2019, 10:24 am 

Yeah - 'cept, these weren't blokes. They were young women in the fullest bloom of athletic prowess, in shorts and jerseys, and hardly any tattoos. Not so much of the falling-to-knees-crossing-themselves, either, as we get in men's international soccer. Premier League UK isn't boring; North American is.
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Re: soccer digress

Postby SciameriKen on July 9th, 2019, 11:11 am 

Serpent » Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:22 pm wrote:
SciameriKen » July 8th, 2019, 7:49 am wrote:I think people are a bit hard on the women for that Thailand thing. First points matter - if they tied the other two teams in the bracket and those teams run it up higher on Thailand then the US team would go home. also perhaps celebrating each goal was a bit excessive - but in some cases then players were the bench warmers so to score for the first time on that stage has to be exciting

We understand about the points - though I, personally, don't consider that a particularly good rule.
But it's not like the US had to worry about making every point count: they came in as one of the strongest teams, if the not the hands-down favourite. It's no secret the US has a huge and diverse population from which to recruit excellent players, and lots of money to develop their team, so they start with a big advantage over every country except maybe the well-off countries of Europe.
The gloating was excessive. How excited should one get over beating a much weaker opponent?
For those of us brought up on the tenets of good sportsmanship (grace in defeat, humility in victory, respect for the referee, courtesy toward rivals, generosity toward the weak) it was embarrassing to watch - like somebody brought their uncouth child to a formal dinner.


All I can say to this is welcome to 2019! Gone are the days of Barry Sanders just flipping the ball to the ref after a touchdown. Don't hate the player.... hate the game!
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Re: soccer digress

Postby TheVat on July 9th, 2019, 1:26 pm 

They like to say in baseball, when the other team complains that you stole a base with a big lead, "Okay - if you agree to stop trying to win, we will stop trying to score more."

Would there be so many heated conversations about this on the web, if the competitors were men? I didn't watch the match, but would anyone be calling it "gloating" in a men's competition? I'm not sports savvy enough to speculate.

Love the joke about 22 men trying to score for two hours. I might almost find soccer interesting if the games were more high-scoring. (disclaimer: I realize that, if I knew more about the tactics and techniques of the game, I might find all the ball-passing a lot more interesting...)
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Re: soccer digress

Postby Serpent on July 9th, 2019, 3:45 pm 

TheVat » July 9th, 2019, 12:26 pm wrote:They like to say in baseball, when the other team complains that you stole a base with a big lead, "Okay - if you agree to stop trying to win, we will stop trying to score more."

Would there be so many heated conversations about this on the web, if the competitors were men? I didn't watch the match, but would anyone be calling it "gloating" in a men's competition? I'm not sports savvy enough to speculate.


In a case where the opponent is so massively outgunned, it wouldn't make any difference who did the gloating - it would be poor sportsmanship, as well as well poor sportswomanship.
But in general, you're right: we've become inured to uncouth behaviour from male athletes and are still accustomed to holding women to a higher standard, as has been the case for several thousand years now.
OTH, it's that same difference in behaviour that turns some of us to women's sports in the first place. The time may well be approaching when women catch down, and my interest will be reduced to horse jumping and dog trials.

I might almost find soccer interesting if the games were more high-scoring.

Okay, but the main reason for low scores is superb goal-keeping. That is a helluva big gate to guard, and this tournament had some of the most spectacular saves I've ever seen.
Matter of taste, really. Tennis may be pretty, but bores me rigid, while American football is aesthetically unpalatable.
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Re: soccer digress

Postby Lozza on July 9th, 2019, 5:34 pm 

Serpent » July 10th, 2019, 1:24 am wrote:Yeah - 'cept, these weren't blokes. They were young women in the fullest bloom of athletic prowess, in shorts and jerseys, and hardly any tattoos. Not so much of the falling-to-knees-crossing-themselves, either, as we get in men's international soccer. Premier League UK isn't boring; North American is.


I know they were women, but I needed to refer to men for my joke. I find that women playing what are traditionally considered men's sports, adhere to the rules better and play with great passion. Just not in the habit of watching female sports.
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Re: soccer digress

Postby Lozza on July 9th, 2019, 6:02 pm 

TheVat » July 10th, 2019, 4:26 am wrote:They like to say in baseball, when the other team complains that you stole a base with a big lead, "Okay - if you agree to stop trying to win, we will stop trying to score more."

Would there be so many heated conversations about this on the web, if the competitors were men? I didn't watch the match, but would anyone be calling it "gloating" in a men's competition? I'm not sports savvy enough to speculate.


Nah, just poor sportsmanship. Plus, that sort of behavior easily blows up in your face if you're beaten the next time you play that opponent. Respect for your opposition is good PR for audiences, and a good attitude for professionalism, with the bonus of not looking stupid if you lose the next encounter.


Love the joke about 22 men trying to score for two hours. I might almost find soccer interesting if the games were more high-scoring. (disclaimer: I realize that, if I knew more about the tactics and techniques of the game, I might find all the ball-passing a lot more interesting...)


Really, it's each to their own. I played lots of different sports as a kid, representing my school in a few, so it's ingrained in me. I've always loved it.
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Re: soccer digress

Postby Lozza on July 9th, 2019, 6:25 pm 

Serpent » July 10th, 2019, 6:45 am wrote:[quote="[url=http://www.sciencechatforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=346758#p346758] Tennis may be pretty, but bores me rigid, while American football is aesthetically unpalatable.


American football...they started broadcasting highlights late at night here, with an ex-pat Yank explaining bits. So I watched and learned a few things over the course of the season until Super Bowl, which was broadcast live. It took them 5 hours to play a 90 minute game! That instantly lost me. Play for 10-15 seconds then wait 5 minutes. No flow in the game. Bored me to death, well, near death...lol. Like you said, it's a matter of personal taste, and I think whether or not we played much as kids and what our parents enjoyed, or not. A mixture of individual attributes and conditioning.
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Re: soccer digress

Postby Serpent on July 10th, 2019, 12:30 am 

Lozza » July 9th, 2019, 5:25 pm wrote: I think whether or not we played much as kids and what our parents enjoyed, or not. A mixture of individual attributes and conditioning.

If you played it as a kid, you have visceral sympathy: your hands form the layup; your foot tenses for the long pass; crouch for the volley; you appreciate the moves as you see somebody else make them - so very much better than you ever could - but not quite as well as you want them to.
My father fell in love with hockey, even though he never played or watched it in the old country. He could never miss Hockey Night in Canada - which meant the entire family had to sit there every blessed Saturday evening, watching little grey men skate very fast in all directions and occasionally smite one another with sticks. Though I have, like the words to first verse of the anthem, learned the rudiments, for me, it's too fast and too rough a sport to enjoy.
I have a basic understanding and moderate appreciation of baseball because of literature - some of my favourite writers are baseballophiles and they wax so poetic, it must have some kind of intellectual magic.
But I do like anything I watch to be aesthetically pleasing...
heh - that should make figure-skating my favourite event, but I get bored after two or three contenders; every act is so much like the one before. Maybe I need both visual stimulation and suspense. Plus, it seems like every sports arena in the entire world has a shitty sound system. Never heard so many ugly anthems as during the FIFA tournament.
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Re: soccer digress

Postby Lozza on July 10th, 2019, 1:40 am 

Serpent » July 10th, 2019, 3:30 pm wrote:[quote="[url=http://www.sciencechatforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=346764#p346764

If you played it as a kid, you have visceral sympathy: your hands form the layup; your foot tenses for the long pass; crouch for the volley; you appreciate the moves as you see somebody else make them - so very much better than you ever could - but not quite as well as you want them to.


Precisely! Watching a bike race, I'm leaning into the corners, watching a car race, I'm punching the accelerator or the brake, especially with those in-car shots looking ahead. In football and athletics, it's the same thing, my muscles are twitching as if I'm there. I love it! Tonight I'm watching the decider in a three-game series that stands at one-all, we call The State of Origin, whereby Rugby League players represent their State instead of their club...New South Wales against Queensland, and I can't wait! Queensland has had the wood on us for the past 12 years due to a unique situation of having 4 brilliant players (that are all decision-makers within the team as well as having a high degree of skill and commitment) that have played together since high school...their intuition and understanding of each other was outstanding, so that each could not only anticipate the others moves, but be anticipated by the others. Something you very rarely see in a game like this. But they have all retired. We won the series last year, and I'm sure will do it again tonight...lol.


My father fell in love with hockey, even though he never played or watched it in the old country. He could never miss Hockey Night in Canada - which meant the entire family had to sit there every blessed Saturday evening, watching little grey men skate very fast in all directions and occasionally smite one another with sticks. Though I have, like the words to first verse of the anthem, learned the rudiments, for me, it's too fast and too rough a sport to enjoy.
I have a basic understanding and moderate appreciation of baseball because of literature - some of my favourite writers are baseballophiles and they wax so poetic, it must have some kind of intellectual magic.
But I do like anything I watch to be aesthetically pleasing...
heh - that should make figure-skating my favourite event, but I get bored after two or three contenders; every act is so much like the one before. Maybe I need both visual stimulation and suspense. Plus, it seems like every sports arena in the entire world has a shitty sound system. Never heard so many ugly anthems as during the FIFA tournament.


A lot of poets and writers of literature understand the metaphor on life that sports can represent and use it well. As for aesthetics, for me, it's the athleticism and skills, doesn't matter if it's a contact sport or not, but I do like contact sports for some reason.
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Re: soccer digress

Postby Serpent on July 10th, 2019, 6:52 am 

Lozza » July 10th, 2019, 12:40 am wrote: Queensland has had the wood on us for the past 12 years due to a unique situation of having 4 brilliant players (that are all decision-makers within the team as well as having a high degree of skill and commitment) that have played together since high school...their intuition and understanding of each other was outstanding, so that each could not only anticipate the others moves, but be anticipated by the others. Something you very rarely see in a game like this.

It's rare in any team sport. It's the situation legends are made of. Near impossible, the way professional teams are owned now; players are bought and sold and traded, not only within a league, but internationally. We watched the 2016 FIFA men's tournament (surprised?) and noticed some outstanding talent on the South American teams. Two, three years later, those same names are in the lineup of Houston Dynamo or Toronto FC and they're just okay. They're playing with strangers - and it doesn't matter, because next contract, they may be in England or Germany.

But they have all retired.

During my childhood, Hungary had one of those "golden teams". They have all died.

Now, Hungary's FIFA world ranking is #42, which I thought was pretty bad until I looked up Canada: the men's team is #78. The Canadian women's team is currently #5. In the whole frickin' world Well, anyway, 155 countries - with more coming on stage all the time.

A lot of poets and writers of literature understand the metaphor on life that sports can represent and use it well.

I guess. And plus, they played baseball, hockey, lacrosse, cricket or rugby in their youth and it's in their muscle-memory, as well as being their formative ethical medium.
I imagine that's also why I have a strong affinity for sportsmanship; not only was i raised to value it, but all my literary mentors also hold it high esteem - on and off the pitch.
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Re: soccer digress

Postby Lozza on July 10th, 2019, 10:25 am 

Serpent » July 10th, 2019, 9:52 pm wrote:
Lozza » July 10th, 2019, 12:40 am wrote: Queensland has had the wood on us for the past 12 years due to a unique situation of having 4 brilliant players (that are all decision-makers within the team as well as having a high degree of skill and commitment) that have played together since high school...their intuition and understanding of each other was outstanding, so that each could not only anticipate the others moves, but be anticipated by the others. Something you very rarely see in a game like this.

It's rare in any team sport.


True. For some reason I was in a mood to understate rather than overstate...lol

It's the situation legends are made of. Near impossible, the way professional teams are owned now; players are bought and sold and traded, not only within a league, but internationally.


Exactly! And 3 of them played for the same club, while the other was in another. But all 4 were always selected for all representative games, including national representation. Though they beat us rather consistently, I didn't begrudge the wins as I knew I was watching something special.

And you'll be happy to know that the game I mentioned earlier has been played, it was a nail-biter, 11 minutes to go we were 12 points ahead, 3 minutes to go both teams were tied, and 90 seconds to go we scored the winning try. I still have a ridiculous ear-to-ear grin. :)

We watched the 2016 FIFA men's tournament (surprised?) and noticed some outstanding talent on the South American teams. Two, three years later, those same names are in the lineup of Houston Dynamo or Toronto FC and they're just okay. They're playing with strangers - and it doesn't matter, because next contract, they may be in England or Germany.


I caught a few of those games...was it Renaldo and a couple others? If they're the guys you're talking of, yes, they were brilliant to watch playing together.

Now, Hungary's FIFA world ranking is #42, which I thought was pretty bad until I looked up Canada: the men's team is #78. The Canadian women's team is currently #5. In the whole frickin' world Well, anyway, 155 countries - with more coming on stage all the time.


Yes, there's always shifts over time in what countries hold the unique talent of the day in any given sport. I like some of the unusual records too...obviously we play cricket against England regularly, both here and on their turf. The "home of cricket" is considered to be Lords, but up until only 4 or 5 years ago, regardless of whether or not Australia won or lost the Test series, for 93 years we beat them every time at Lords. That's different players, coaches, conditions, let alone era's of sport becoming more professional until finally it became completely professional. I just find it interesting. On the face of it, there's no logical reason for this to occur, so one can only hypothesize the psychological aspect of a record like that developing over the time period adding pressure to the English teams as time went along, while I suppose the Aussies not only develop a bravado over time, but work harder to win because of who it is, where it is, and we're the underdog colony. Most games are won before they are played...mental attitude.
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