No more woman's world records. Trans community take over

[edy420]

When its comes to physical attributes, men generally have an advantage. At the elite level, the differences are definitive. This is why we dont have Brock Lesnar fight Ronda Rousey in the UFC.

But according to the trans community this is a figment of my imagination. I am delusional to think that biological men differ from biological woman in any way. Must have been all the pot I smoked.

Now, biological men are smashing woman's world records, in weight lifting, track and field etc. They are competing in womans team sports and even fighting in the UFC. (Biological men knocking out biological woman)

Organizations are scrambling to defend their right to differentiate, but it's a losing battle for them. They can not even turn to science, as a valid defense, because the trans-womans feelings are at stakes.

I'm trying to think of a nice way to ask a question on this topic, but I have nothing nice to say, so I won't say it. What I will do is provide the answer and open discussion..

We have a womans division. We have a men's division. Now that we have trans-people, let's open a trans-people division where they can set their own new records.

You're welcome.

[Serpent]

I assume you're speaking of organized sports - international competition and professional. Both are so badly skewed already, and women's sports are so much less attended/funded/regarded/reported that a change will matter not at all.

Your suggestion is good as any.
And the problem?

[edy420]

Having four daughters, I would hate to see them train their whole lives to be competitive at their sport, only to be beaten by a Male. Or worse, knocked out by one.

The look on girls faces when they see two guys win the track and field. Or the look on 2nd and 3rd place winners in weight lifting, standing next to a bloke who's built like a brick shithouse. Girls dreams are being shattered. What about their feelings?

If we abolish the men and womans division altogether, there will be no woman champions. Woman like Ronda Rousey, have their opportunity taken away from them, to obtain greatness. Or the William's sisters in tennis wint have the opportunity to become world class respected sports role models for young woman. (Considering they wouldn't be in the top 200 men's rankings to date).

I'm all for gender equality, but we dont achieve that by removing gender differentiating categories, at least in sports. We need a men and womans division to maintain equal opportunity. But the transgender community completely destroys equal opportunity for woman.

[Serpent]

Having four daughters, I would hate to see them train their whole lives to be competitive at their sport, only to be beaten by a Male. Or worse, knocked out by one.

Fighting sports are idiotic already. What's one more person with brain-damage?

The look on girls faces when they see two guys win the track and field.

Show me. How often has this happened?

If we abolish the men and womans division altogether,

Your suggestion was to set up a third category. Have you abandoned it?

[edy420]

Fighting sports are idiotic already. What's one more person with brain-damage?

A valid comment. However the rules in place are there to protect the combatants. In all the years I've followed MMA, I have never heard of a fighter breaking another fighter's skull. Soccer kicks are illegal as are 12 to 6 elbows, to help prevent it from happening. HOWEVER, transgender MMA fighter Falon Fox has broken a womans skull. Womans safety is at jeopardy and one would think this should be allowed to be taken seriously.

Show me. How often has this happened?

Let's say for arguments sake, it's only happened once. Should that person not be entitled to a fair chance at winning?

This has extended to the Olympics. Now woman won't be able to get a gold medal for their country. I firmly maintain that yes, there should be a third category for transgender. But that's not the case in any sport or Olympics. Why

[Lomax]

I should say in defense of pugilistic sports that when I finally emerged from years of homelessness, squalid poverty and exploitation at the hands of crooked employer-thieves, if I hadn't taken up boxing in the ring I might have taken it up in the street. I don't apologise for that, and many would feel the same given the same circumstances. Just as availability of pornography correlates inversely with rape incidence, "fighting sports" are a controlled outlet for a natural destructive impulse.

Caster Semenya has been told by the IAAF that she cannot compete in the women's division because she has a Disorder(/Difference) of Sexual Development. That is to say, she has a chromosomal abnormality which has elevated her testosterone levels well above those of the average woman, so now this woman is told she cannot compete in the women's division. So this problem is more complex than keeping men and women separated. Edy's arguments are legitimate - it is appalling to me that somebody can spend ten years in the gym in a man's body and then, while undergoing sex transitioning, enter a ring with the gains they have made and knock out somebody who has been forced to train with a woman's androgen levels - but they apply in smaller ways to smaller biological differences. How do we deal with the shades of grey? How many divisions are necessary, or possible, or practical?

[Serpent]

Let's say for arguments sake, it's only happened once.

Let's not. Show me the girl's face.

[Serpent]

How do we deal with the shades of grey?

Like we always do: negotiation, trial and error, case by case, as they come up. When/if a pattern forms, make a new rule.

How many divisions are necessary, or possible, or practical?

No idea. We somehow managed to figure out women's voting, the abolition of capital punishment and desegregation in schools. This can't be insurmountable.

[Nick_A]

When its comes to physical attributes, men generally have an advantage. At the elite level, the differences are definitive. This is why we dont have Brock Lesnar fight Ronda Rousey in the UFC.

But according to the trans community this is a figment of my imagination. I am delusional to think that biological men differ from biological woman in any way. Must have been all the pot I smoked.

Now, biological men are smashing woman's world records, in weight lifting, track and field etc. They are competing in womans team sports and even fighting in the UFC. (Biological men knocking out biological woman)

Organizations are scrambling to defend their right to differentiate, but it's a losing battle for them. They can not even turn to science, as a valid defense, because the trans-womans feelings are at stakes.

I'm trying to think of a nice way to ask a question on this topic, but I have nothing nice to say, so I won't say it. What I will do is provide the answer and open discussion..

We have a womans division. We have a men's division. Now that we have trans-people, let's open a trans-people division where they can set their own new records.

You're welcome.

Edy you have to think modern. The Organizations can't tell you who or what you are. The modern way is for you to tell the organizers or government what you are. It is progressive

https://www.them.us/story/gender-neutra ... te-law-nyc

New York City Just Passed a Gender-Neutral Birth Certificate Law

“New Yorkers should be free to tell their government who they are, not the other way around,” said Mayor DeBlasio.

The bottom line is if a man calls himself a woman he can race as a woman. it would be sexist to deny this freedom.

No I don't believe it either but it just goes to show how far we have sunk.

[Serpent]

.... it just goes to show how far we have sunk.

From where?
What situation, what year, what legal position, in your opinion, was the high-point?

[edy420]

Nick,

I'm open to the idea of others being true to themselves. It has nothing to do with me. But when it does have something to do with me, that's when I draw the line.

I'm not sure what NZ law is on the subject of a gender neutral birth certificate law, but my wife is learning to be a mid wife. She is not allowed to use the terms boy or girl. When a woman gives birth, my wife has to say "it" is born. Saying he or she, may get her fired.

If other parents are confused about what their child is then that's an issue they have to figure out. But I will call my children by gender. And I will not let any Government tell me otherwise. The transgender community wants us to label children as an unidentified gender until they are old enough to decide for themselves. Generally the age of 8. Again, if that's what other people want to do, that's up to them. But dont tell me I cant call my child, Son or Daughter.

I have scientific fact to prove my point. XY and XX chromosomes is a good identifier, as is genitals. When my children move out and provide for themselves, they are free to review their gender and or sexuality. When these biological markers are a bit muddled up, then it's worth being open minded, I think.

I guess this leaks over into the topic of teaching our beliefs to our children. The children will take on the belief systems of 3 sources. The parents, the Government and society. When these 3 sources are conflicting, the question I ask is, who has the right to teach the children their beleif system? Which beleif system has superiority and ultimate control over the indoctrination of children's young minds.

If the parents have priority, then leave me to it. I'm not confused.

Being open minded to the trans community is an example of how far society has progressed, I think, more so than an example of how far we've sunk. People should be allowed to be themselves and freely express themselves as such. But, in the case of athletes, they should not be allowed to destroy the beliefs and life work of others, ie woman dedicating their lives to being the best woman at something. Nor should they be allowed to break a womans skull!

[edy420]

Let's say for arguments sake, it's only happened once.

Let's not. Show me the girl's face.

Skip to 19 seconds and look at all the biological girls faces when they lose to the two transgender athletes. Their friend was cut from the race because she was 6th. If the first two contestants weren't biological males, their friend would have had the right to race.



In NZ, that look on their face is known as the WTF look.

Their friend adds..

It's very frustrating because I, and my friends have put in a lot of effort to take down our times and to compete ourselves better, but we are not physically able to be competitive against someone who is biologically a male

A number of gold medalist woman are speaking out against the idea of transgender athletes competing, also. Then there's the feminist movement. I'm sure there's plenty more examples to draw from. These people are labeled bigots and transphobic. Imo a deceptive ploy to take away from valid arguments.

[Serpent]

So, a school competition. OK. They're disappointed, and they feel this was unfair. In other sports, like baseball and hockey, girls have been fighting for the right to play alongside the boys; they thought that being excluded was unfair.
You do understand - and I'm sure they do, too - that in competition, somebody's going to lose and the loser will be disappointed. Like, the other girl is a year older or 6" taller. All the kids born with natural ability have an advantage over the clumsy and awkward kids. All the kids with excellent nutrition and health-care have an advantage over the hungry and sickly ones. All the kids with supportive parents have an advantage over the ones whose parents can't, or won't buy them good shoes and take them to 6am practice. All the kids who go to schools with good sports facilities, coaches and equipment have an advantage over the ones whose school has no gym and dirt yard.
Those differences have always been considered fair. This is just one more factor.

If you all want to make sport fairer, I'm sure you can do it.
If they can make a whole separate Special Olympics; I see no reason they can't create a separate category - M/F/T - as you first suggested.
Or they can have weight/size classes in every sport.

Here is one idea: just run and jump and skate and play ball - for the fun of it, not for the medals.
Too radical, i guess.
Still, i'm never going to approve of encouraging children to beat on each other. Not even if we accidentally fucked up society so badly that they feel they have to do it on the street do we need to legitimize that by bringing it indoors.

[Lomax]

How many divisions are necessary, or possible, or practical?

No idea. We somehow managed to figure out women's voting, the abolition of capital punishment and desegregation in schools. This can't be insurmountable.

Those are not divisions. They are the removal of divisions.

[edy420]

My elders beat each other to death with sticks. The victor would eat the losers beating heart to take their Mana. Modern day MMA combat sport is a simulation of this brutality. We still get to see who has the fastest reflexes, best hand eye coordination, physical attributes, and mental capacity to overcome pain and adversity, but without the dying part. No other sport combines all the athletic attributes of human in a way that defines the greatest athlete of all. Very civilised IMO.

Perhaps your willing to argue, its inhuman? I beg to differ, as does the theory of evolution and 100% of human history.

Regardless, combat sports is just one sport. It is the most important example however, because biological men are physically attacking biological woman and getting paid to do it. Even as a brute myself, who loves the idea of men bashing men, or woman bashing woman, I absolutely detest the idea of a biological Male breaking a biological womans skull. She didn't even know that Fox was born a man. Fox felt she didn't have to disclose this information because she was following all the rules. Her first 3 opponents had no idea that she was born a Male.

Despicable and disgusting. Men should not be allowed to bash woman, call me transphobic. If you disagree with me, your a transphobic-phobic. Dont be a bigot.

[edy420]

Hi Lomax,

How do we deal with the shades of grey? How many divisions are necessary, or possible, or practical?

This is the body of my interest in this topic. It seems some woman are ok with transwoman competitors, while some are not. Perhaps we have an open division, that allows all the grey areas, as well as those who just want to compete regardless of gender altogether.

Cis-gender, trans, hermaphrodite, shim, zim, zero etc. All acceptable in an open division. Or does this still discriminate against those who are genuinely trans?

My issue here is, you can not determine if someone is genuine or not. Most rules in place dont require you have any physical altercations. A rapper made a point in smashing womans world records in a viral video. He laughs at that fact that he doesn't identify as a woman, and says its upto the sports commission to prove otherwise.

We either discriminate or not. Meaning, we have gender divisions, or as Serpent implies, we remove them altogether and just play along and have fun with each other.

I'd be open to removing gender division, but it oppresses womans opportunity. It's a step backwards in equality. That means we must discriminate between genders with different advantages. I'm a little lost. Please tell me I'm right, at least upto this point?

[Serpent]

Perhaps your willing to argue, [fighting]its inhuman?

Not at all. Most insanity is all too human!

Despicable and disgusting.

That's right.

Men should not be allowed to bash woman,.

Also right. And women should not bash women. And men should not beat men, and boys and girls should not beat one another. And dogs should not be made to fight one another. And neither should roosters. In nature, the weaker opponent is allowed to submit or run away. Only humans are crazy enough to fake combat for the pleasure of an audience.

I'd be open to removing gender division, but it oppresses womans opportunity. It's a step backwards in equality. That means we must discriminate between genders with different advantages. I'm a little lost. Please tell me I'm right, at least upto this point?

If you - if the sport-supporting public generally - really cared about equality, they could eliminate all those other inequalities: of health and welfare, of opportunity, of economic disparity, of training facility.

Back when the Olympics still made some pretense at amateur status, some countries cheated by giving their professional athletes cover job, usually in the army. Russia regularly sent in masculine women; pretty much everybody has used or does use, some enhancing drugs.
Thing is, when you put a lot of stake into winning, every possible advantage will be used.
If you think it's broken, and you care, find a way to fix it without pushing the injustice onto somebody else.

Personally, I don't give a damn: I think it's all wasteful and ridiculous.

[TheVat]

With more pressing human rights issues in the world, this seems like small potatoes. A basic principles of fairness would suggest compete with people at the same physical baseline, e.g. if you started male and then went female, that's a division. A reputable physician won't do sexual reassignment until after puberty (after other therapeutic options are explored for gender dysphoria), so a man-->woman will have the bones and joints and supporting tissues of a male. This is obviously a different physique from a traditional cis-gender person.

The notion of cis women's records all being shattered seems like a straw man.

[Serpent]

In most competitive sports, the genitals are not in play; even sequestered so that they can't come into play. IOW, irrelevant to the sport.
So, divide the competitive classes by muscle-mass.

[Nick_A]

Edy

Being open minded to the trans community is an example of how far society has progressed, I think, more so than an example of how far we've sunk. People should be allowed to be themselves and freely express themselves as such. But, in the case of athletes, they should not be allowed to destroy the beliefs and life work of others, ie woman dedicating their lives to being the best woman at something. Nor should they be allowed to break a womans skull!

The reason I mentioned how far we've sunk is because I believe in a free society as opposed to forms of secular statist slavery to keep the peace. The ideal of the nuclear family is the cornerstone of a free society. It assumes that the balance of yin yang energies expressed in the union of marriage is essential to receive the help of grace necessary to retain the values necessary for freedom and to pass this perspective along to their children. Without the nuclear family order is only possible through slavery to a tyrant or a form of big government.

The ideal of the nuclear family and its blend of energies doesn't suggest anything else is bad but only that the ideal of the nuclear family is essential for freedom. We are forgetting it which only indicates sinking into a loss of essential understanding. Nothing good can come from forgetting the essential complimentary differences between yin and yang which is being done now in favor of some sort of imaginary PC unity.

[Serpent]

The reason I mentioned how far we've sunk

From what? Where and when was the legal and social condition that you consider the high point?

[Nick_A]

The reason I mentioned how far we've sunk

From what? Where and when was the legal and social condition that you consider the high point?

You refer to legal and social conditions and I am referring to the ideal of the nuclear family known in the Judeo Christian traditions essential for freedom avoiding the government adopting the obligations of the nuclear family. Its high point was at the beginning

In order for the government to establish its dominance it must eliminate the ideal of the nuclear family. It is succeeding.

[Serpent]

You refer to legal and social conditions and I am referring to the ideal of the nuclear family known in the Judeo Christian traditions essential for freedom avoiding the government adopting the obligations of the nuclear family. Its high point was at the beginning

(my bold)
The beginning of what? the nuclear family? 200,000,000 years ago, with birds? 100,000 years ago, with humans? 3500 years ago with Judaism - except, no, that won't work, because not only the OT Jews, but most other civilizations were male-dominated, polygamous, treating women and children, along with bondsmen, captives and slaves, as the patriarch's property. So, that freedom of which you prate didn't exist. Doesn't exist in enforced families now. And never could exist in that kind of family for those who, due to various accidents of birth, don't fit your standard model of plug-in unit.

So, where we sunk from didn't happen yet. Which makes the distance or depth of the sinking difficult to measure.
Just wanted to clarify that.

[edy420]

The vat,

Womans records are being broken. The strongest person alive is a man. Under some rules he could decide to be a woman for a day and set womans records. This is what rapper Zubby did as a joke. Far from the strongest man alive, Yet he has womans power lifting records.

The Olympics rules are a little more defined, having to have undertaken the right chemicals for a year and having the right testosterone levels etc. But what happens when a transwoman sets an Olympic record. Will this be fair on cis gender woman?


Another example,

https://www.thenewamerican.com/culture/ ... -criticism

Transgender athlete Mary Gregory (shown) has reportedly “shattered” four women’s powerlifting world records on Sunday, but only Gregory seems to be celebrating.

A biological male who identifies as a female, Gregory set records in women’s squat, bench press, and deadlift, and scored a Masters world total record.

Gregory took to social media to celebrate his victory and remarked on how well he was treated by fans and officials. "What a day, 9 for 9! Masters world squat record, open world bench record, masters world dl record, and masters world total record!" Gregory posted to Instagram.

"A huge thank you to [RAW Powerlifting Federation], from the bottom of my heart! As a transgender lifter I was unsure what to expect going into this meet and everyone — all the spotters, loaders, referees, staff, meet director, all made me welcome and treated me as just another female lifter — thank you!" the athlete continued. "And thanks to all the fans in the audience who cheered me on and congratulated me!"

If the changes could be made at the genetic level, then we could presume its fair. But the changes are cosmetic and only at a chemical level. Transgender woman have an unfair advantage.

[edy420]

Serpent,

Just because people have always cheated, doesn't mean it's ok.

When you train your body and mind to the best of your ability, using any natural advantage possible (training in the army?) that isn't cheating.

Performance enhancing drugs is cheating, and is tested for in all professional sports.

[Nick_A]

You refer to legal and social conditions and I am referring to the ideal of the nuclear family known in the Judeo Christian traditions essential for freedom avoiding the government adopting the obligations of the nuclear family. Its high point was at the beginning

(my bold)
The beginning of what? the nuclear family? 200,000,000 years ago, with birds? 100,000 years ago, with humans? 3500 years ago with Judaism - except, no, that won't work, because not only the OT Jews, but most other civilizations were male-dominated, polygamous, treating women and children, along with bondsmen, captives and slaves, as the patriarch's property. So, that freedom of which you prate didn't exist. Doesn't exist in enforced families now. And never could exist in that kind of family for those who, due to various accidents of birth, don't fit your standard model of plug-in unit.

So, where we sunk from didn't happen yet. Which makes the distance or depth of the sinking difficult to measure.
Just wanted to clarify that.

Again, the nuclear family is an ideal which reflects the religious value of receiving from above and giving to below. As such it cannot be considered a widely accepted concept anymore than freedom can be an accepted goal. But the value of the balanced blend of yang and yin (male and female) energies goes back to the Bible and before.

https://bebusinessed.com/history/histor ... -families/

It’s easy to think of the nuclear family as a modern invention, or as a product of the industrialized world. However, historians Peter Laslett and Alan MacFarlane found that this wasn’t generally the case. Prior to the research from these historians, it was generally agreed that extended families were common throughout western countries like England.

Laslett and MacFarlane’s research showed this wasn’t the case. They discovered that the nuclear family (a mother, father, and child or children in a house) was the “dominant arrangement in England stretching back to the thirteenth century.”

Thanks to this research, Laslett and MacFarlane dispelled the notion that nuclear families were a new phenomenon, or that they had only appeared with the rise of industrialization. Their research showed that the nuclear family was much older – at least in England.

Why worry about where it began? The important thing is if you feel it has value essential for our species to have a free society. If you do then you'll support the ideal of the nuclear family. If you don't then you can condemn it as old fashioned and guilty of something ending in ist.

[edy420]

Nick,

While I agree with you, our neighbors may not. I have gay friends who dont agree with what I think a nuclear family should look like. And I respect their opinion.

Everyone likes to think, if the world would just do what i did, then we'd all get along. But we are all unique, and we should focus on accommodating that fact more than trying to force others to be like us.

I'm not so sure that there was a period when we could say, this was the high point, and we declined from here. If I'm thinking of the same era as you, when nuclear families was a norm, then we are neglecting the fact that gay people were afraid for their lives. Afraid of their parents and afraid to be open and honest.

There's pros and cons between that era and 2019. It's not as simple as comparing them and saying, that one was better.

The important thing is if you feel it has value essential for our species to have a free society. If you do then you'll support the ideal of the nuclear family.

A free society would accept all families. If transgender communities want to be themselves and have their families that's ok with me. I dont like that they want to implement their rules and values into my house. Probably as much as they dont want me to implement my ideology in their home.

I watched a gender neutral family on YouTube. They basically forced their sons to be girls. I think it's wrong. But, they probably think it's wrong I teach my children to pray.

I think the goal should be, an open and honest society.

[Serpent]

Again, the nuclear family is an ideal which reflects the religious value of receiving from above and giving to below. As such it cannot be considered a widely accepted concept anymore than freedom can be an accepted goal.

So, it doesn't exist, has never existed and cannot exist. But you've sunk from it. OK.

[Lomax]

I'd be open to removing gender division, but it oppresses womans opportunity. It's a step backwards in equality. That means we must discriminate between genders with different advantages. I'm a little lost. Please tell me I'm right, at least upto this point?

You're asking questions, which I think brings you up to the right point. The preference for jumping to answers is why Serpent thinks that everybody who engages in combat sports is merely being stupid, for example. And you astutely articulate the contradictions in the way we divide genders in sports - we're not just faced with a practical problem but a problem of principle.

[Serpent]

The preference for jumping to answers is why Serpent thinks that everybody who engages in combat sports is merely being stupid, for example.

Not stupid. And I didn't refer to the state of mind of the individuals who get caught up in it. In fact, I expressly and vehemently object to the subsuming of children in the cult of violence, partly because we have ample medical evidence that repeated blows to the face and head does damage sensory and cognitive faculties.
I said the practice is crazy, that only humans would do this for sport, as it confers no natural advantage. The advantage that prowess in pain-as-entertainment confers is measured by the rules and standards of a twisted social fabric.
I didn't jump to this answer; I stalked it long and slowly, through a great thicket of bafflement.

we're not just faced with a practical problem but a problem of principle.

Which is?