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Braininvat » September 3rd, 2018, 4:35 pm wrote:Seems a bit like saying there can't be any odd numbers because of the even numbers crowding them out in their infinitude. Brent, an infinite space is a continuum and has abundant room for infinite sets of anything - atoms, beach balls, short bald men named Balthazar, you name it. Have you read the thread here prior to posting? If nothing else, look up Hilbert's Hotel, and see how there's always room for more guests.
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davidm » September 3rd, 2018, 12:31 pm wrote:
The known universe means the observable universe -- our Hubble volume. WMAP indicates the universe is probably flat, hence spatially infinite. If so, there are an infinite humber of atoms.
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someguy1 » September 3rd, 2018, 4:47 pm wrote:davidm » September 3rd, 2018, 12:31 pm wrote:
The known universe means the observable universe -- our Hubble volume. WMAP indicates the universe is probably flat, hence spatially infinite. If so, there are an infinite humber of atoms.
I read your WMAP link and I do not believe it supports what you say.
If the universe is expanding from the big bang, suppose we say it's flat, hence it will expand "forever." Doesn't that still mean that at any given moment, it's finite?
It's just unbounded, but not actually infinite. Is that correct? Or do you see this differently?
Secondly, even if the universe is spatially infinite, why does that imply there are infinitely many atoms? How does that follow? At the moment of the big bang there is a finite amount of stuff.
In both cases you seem to be equating an unbounded but finite space with an actually infinite one.
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Braininvat » September 3rd, 2018, 5:41 pm wrote:SG: Just to clarify again, I wasn't saying the cardinality of all beachballs was the same as the real numbers, i. e. the cardinality of the continuum.
Braininvat » September 3rd, 2018, 5:41 pm wrote: But the cardinality of beachballs and bald guys is the same in an infinite multiverse, right?
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someguy1 » September 3rd, 2018, 5:35 pm wrote:
Interesting link but inconclusive. People are raising the same objections I am, and the responses are handwavy at best. "Consider a big expanding balloon. Now imagine it's infinite." Puhleeeze..
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someguy1 » September 3rd, 2018, 6:00 pm wrote:
Have you entirely given up conversing and regressed to Google-mining?
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davidm » September 3rd, 2018, 6:05 pm wrote:I am trying as best I can to help you overcome your total confusion about this subject. I thought this link might help you visualize where you are going wrong. Instead, you resort to trollish behaviior. Suit yourself, but don't expect me to indulge you.
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someguy1 » September 3rd, 2018, 6:00 pm wrote:
Have you entirely given up conversing and regressed to Google-mining?
Jeez man that link does not explain anything. Are you serious? "Woo woo in an infinite universe a finite part of it is INFINITESIMAL wooo hoo!" Dude that is childish. It's insulting frankly. At no point did they show the universe is infinite or even make a plausibility argument. Honestly, did you read the link?
" If we go to smaller and smaller times since the Big Bang, the green circle shrinks to a point ..."
This is the exact same confusion between unboundedness and actual infinity that permeates this discussion. As the universe gets larger, the observable universe is a smaller percentage. But the universe never becomes infinite. Their own argument shows this.
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ronjanec » September 3rd, 2018, 6:06 pm wrote:“Imagine an infinite sheet that doubles in size”? An “infinite” sheet that could double in size was never infinite to begin with(!), this was always finite.)
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davidm » Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:09 pm wrote:ronjanec » September 3rd, 2018, 6:06 pm wrote:“Imagine an infinite sheet that doubles in size”? An “infinite” sheet that could double in size was never infinite to begin with(!), this was always finite.)
Wrong.
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davidm » September 3rd, 2018, 6:18 pm wrote:Imagine an infinite sheet of black paper. On it are painted white dots. Since the paper is infinite in length and breadth, then there are an infinite number of white dots on it. Let those white dots stand for galaxies, and the black paper stand for the universe.
At time 1 (t1) each dot is separated by one inch from all its neighboring dots. At t2 each dot is separated by two inches from all its neighboring dots. An infinite universe has just doubled in size, which means: The distance between each dot and its neighbors is, at t2, twice as great as it was at t1.
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someguy1 » September 3rd, 2018, 6:28 pm wrote:The plane is obviously the exact same size as it was before, namely infinite.
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ronjanec » September 3rd, 2018, 6:42 pm wrote:Wrong. An infinite sized sheet of black paper/or universe with an infinite number of white dots/galaxies still cannot double in size davidm no matter what the dots/galaxies do.
Again, if an “infinite” universe could ever double in size for any reason(or was previously limited in size before it doubled), it was never infinite to begin with. You cannot double an infinite sized anything no matter what happens anywhere else.
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davidm » Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:47 pm wrote:ronjanec » September 3rd, 2018, 6:42 pm wrote:Wrong. An infinite sized sheet of black paper/or universe with an infinite number of white dots/galaxies still cannot double in size davidm no matter what the dots/galaxies do.
Again, if an “infinite” universe could ever double in size for any reason(or was previously limited in size before it doubled), it was never infinite to begin with. You cannot double an infinite sized anything no matter what happens anywhere else.
See my reply to someguy1. I ask you the same question: are you denying that what I just described is possible?
In an infinite universe, "doubling in size" just means, "doubling the distance between objects." And this is certainly possible in infinite space.
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ronjanec » September 3rd, 2018, 7:23 pm wrote:davidm » Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:47 pm wrote:ronjanec » September 3rd, 2018, 6:42 pm wrote:Wrong. An infinite sized sheet of black paper/or universe with an infinite number of white dots/galaxies still cannot double in size davidm no matter what the dots/galaxies do.
Again, if an “infinite” universe could ever double in size for any reason(or was previously limited in size before it doubled), it was never infinite to begin with. You cannot double an infinite sized anything no matter what happens anywhere else.
See my reply to someguy1. I ask you the same question: are you denying that what I just described is possible?
In an infinite universe, "doubling in size" just means, "doubling the distance between objects." And this is certainly possible in infinite space.
I am telling you, that it is impossible for a universe that exists in an infinite size to grow in size for any reason...period.
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Braininvat » September 3rd, 2018, 6:35 pm wrote:Seems a bit like saying there can't be any odd numbers because of the even numbers crowding them out in their infinitude. Brent, an infinite space is a continuum and has abundant room for infinite sets of anything - atoms, beach balls, short bald men named Balthazar, you name it. Have you read the thread here prior to posting? If nothing else, look up Hilbert's Hotel, and see how there's always room for more guests.
in·fi·nite
ˈinfənət/Submit
adjective
adjective: infinite
1. limitless or endless in space, extent, or size; impossible to measure or calculate.
"the infinite mercy of God"
synonyms:boundless, unbounded, unlimited, limitless, never-ending, interminable;
MATHEMATICS
greater than any assignable quantity or countable number.
MATHEMATICS
(of a series) able to be continued indefinitely.
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