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Lomax » Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:56 pm wrote:I haven't read Charles Murray's book, but either way my understanding was that race is just a perceived phenomenon. Which is to say that there's no real scientific evidence that the human race is further subdivided in to races.
With this in mind I struggle to understand the premise of the question. What exactly is being correlated with, or against, intelligence?
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wolfhnd » March 8th, 2018, 3:20 pm wrote:IQ is a tool,
Like every tool it is only as useful as the skill set of the tool user can make it.
It's main utility is in directing the educational path of people who fall into general categories of intellectual capabilities.
IQ and race is to some extent taking a tool designed for individuals and applying it to groups.
In under developed countries knowing something about the IQ distribution could on the other hand influence what kind of investments in education and industrial development would be most beneficial in the short run.
In general I prefer to use the concept of ethnicity not race.
Evolution never stops, isolated groups will diverge.
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wolfhnd » March 8th, 2018, 11:00 pm wrote:Lomax » Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:56 pm wrote:I haven't read Charles Murray's book, but either way my understanding was that race is just a perceived phenomenon. Which is to say that there's no real scientific evidence that the human race is further subdivided in to races.
With this in mind I struggle to understand the premise of the question. What exactly is being correlated with, or against, intelligence?
Evolution never stops, isolated groups will diverge.
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Lomax » Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:25 pm wrote:wolfhnd » March 8th, 2018, 11:00 pm wrote:Lomax » Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:56 pm wrote:I haven't read Charles Murray's book, but either way my understanding was that race is just a perceived phenomenon. Which is to say that there's no real scientific evidence that the human race is further subdivided in to races.
With this in mind I struggle to understand the premise of the question. What exactly is being correlated with, or against, intelligence?
Evolution never stops, isolated groups will diverge.
Which groups are isolated?
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wolfhnd » March 8th, 2018, 11:36 pm wrote:Invalidating the concept of race doesn't change that. We know for example that various diseases are more prevalent in people who share ancestors from a geographical location.
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BadgerJelly » March 9th, 2018, 2:55 am wrote:Okay, so things are poorly defined and most people would rather argue about the relevance of IQ.
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Lomax » March 9th, 2018, 4:08 pm wrote:BadgerJelly » March 9th, 2018, 2:55 am wrote:Okay, so things are poorly defined and most people would rather argue about the relevance of IQ.
IQ measures spatio-temporal reasoning. I don't have a problem with it provided that we do not take it too seriously. What does "race" measure?
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BadgerJelly » March 9th, 2018, 9:46 am wrote:Lomax » March 9th, 2018, 4:08 pm wrote:BadgerJelly » March 9th, 2018, 2:55 am wrote:Okay, so things are poorly defined and most people would rather argue about the relevance of IQ.
IQ measures spatio-temporal reasoning. I don't have a problem with it provided that we do not take it too seriously. What does "race" measure?
I don't think "race" measures anything. Sadly we're burdened with the issue and people are desperately trying to attach meaning to it in absence of less visually obvious human distinctions (even though, ironically, we're all as good as genetically identical compared to other species of mammal!)
The point is, what can we do about this polticized issue? Put scientific weight behind it, or face the fact that we don't have the ethical capacity to deal with it yet and try and shift the focus to other issues?
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Serpent » March 9th, 2018, 8:29 am wrote:In the sealed room test -
Is the pipe affixed to the floor? Then piss in it to make the ball float.
A monkey would get that. Or crow, for that matter, but he couldn't physically do it.
As for using the data, I don't care who advocated IQ discrimination, when or why. I have a personal prejudice against junk science, that's all. I have seen plenty of IQ tests (unlike many of the subjects to whom it was administered) and i know that the more of them you've taken the better you do. I've also seen a lot of the academic bias that the devisers don't intend or realize. The biggest problem is that IQ tests are two-dimensional and people live in four or five dimensions.
Well, Duh! Kids who come from privilege do better on IQ tests than frightened kids who don't get enough to eat, and guess what, the ones that score high on IQ tests also do better in life, and more of the rich ones are white and more of the poor ones are black. Now we got statistics to prove it.
IQ testing may have been useful for sorting out army recruits for various assignments. What I still don't get how mass IQ testing will better educate or nurture anybody, or help anybody integrate into a society, or why we'd want smart people to integrate into dysfunctional societies. There are surely more reliable, more accurate, more readily applicable indicators of who need what, and what needs fixing.
Why not just assume that all children need individual attention: give them all enough food, security, a healthy environment, a good basic education and opportunities to improve.
If you can't afford that, invest in family planning.
If you want to know children's aptitudes, ask their Gr 1 teacher. Reading teachers' assessment would be a lot cheaper and more effective than administering all those tests.
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