Trump Restates His Immigration policy

[zetreque]

I never went down that path so I have no obligation to discuss that here. I have no wish to discuss only a tiny piece of this slop pile. You are the one going down the racism pathway which is sort of deflection. My stance is on how much rubbish is coming out of the govt daily and as Toucana mentions how stupid he is. My stance is that this is not leadership material and does not uplift the country, the world, or humanity.

[TheVat]

I am starting to think you are completely blinded by hatred here.

I was asking VERY clearly, if it was "racist" to call a country a "shithole" and whether it bother you that almost anything he says is portrayed as "racist"? For example, say you go on holiday to India and return to call the place a "shithole" ... does that make you a racist too?

Saying things like "Last year he said Kill all the Jews." and then referring to comments about the state of a country as being equally racist is disingenuous. I thought you'd be smart enough to see this. I guess not. What happens when you criticize a country or comment on its state of poverty, will you be called racist too?

Did you read the two postings prior to this quote? The list of bigoted remarks and actions was offered, not with hatred, but with a friendly gesture of informing you on matters of public record that are evidence of who Trump is. I pity Trump, who does seem to be one filled with hatred and contempt for many people. You seemed uncertain if Trump singling out African nations and Haiti as shitholes might be indicative of racism, so I tried to offer you, a British subject, a list that would give you a more precise focus on his attitudes towards black people as has been manifested on many prior occasions. Please read the lists and then explain to us how Trump is not a racist and bigot. I think the burden of supporting such an outlandish assertion is on you.

[zetreque]

The only thing one needs to understand is that President shithole has been paraphrased to say things like "you just tell people and they believe you." That pretty much says it all. People spend hours and days trying to make sense of a man who lives his life and success by lying and telling people what they want to hear. He then gets caught in his lies more and more often being in the spotlight. People then deflect and go down the wrong path of division. It's like people are trying to defend him just because they honor the position of president but it's hard to do that when some shithole lied his way into the position that should be honored.

Just listen to the statements coming out of his mouth every single time he opens his mouth.

The other day he was on tv saying how people should be happy they had the privileged to vote for him. Seriously? Like we should all be down on our knees thanking him for letting us vote for him. I think he got it backwards. He should be the one privileged to have been nominated and voted for, for such a role.

[BadgerJelly]

Toucana -

p.s. - You seriously wonder why people regard him as an idiot, as well as a racist ?

Not in the slightest. I think the true idiots are the one's calling him an idiot. Saying idiotic things does not make someone an idiot. He is a bullying businessman as far as I can see. He has been successful by steam-rolling over his opponents and using any immediate means to do so.

His technique works because people buy into BS and pander to his every taunt and what I imagine is a purposely half-witted comment.

The idiocy is with those who expect someone who is not a politician to act like a politician. In their rage they then inspire the media to attach any label they can to him in order to undermine his authority (which is left to it he'd do so himself very quickly.)

If you play his game by his rules you'll lose. Next in line are Oprah and then likely Kayne ... in time we may even see Homer Simpson running. I guess it may actually make the democrats put forward a viable candidate next time rather than jump on the bandwagon of "celebrity."

At least Biv answered my question though. He doesn't regard it as a racist comment. If you look at the meida though they are all shouting out about this "racist" comment (even though it isn't actually racist.) My concern is that next time someone els ein the public eye saying they don't like this or that country they'll be called "racist" too. No doubt the people are already sifting through comments made by people these past few decades for such comments - maybe I am wrong, maybe few people will use this as an excuse to label other people as "racist." (I hope that is the case.)

It does worry me though given the attacks on free speech. There are some serious crackpots out there usng "racism" as a way to get there own way. I certainly do agree that Trump is doing very little to help this situation as his comments do further polarize the public - which if he is the kind of person I believe he is then that is precisely what he wishes to do.

[TheVat]

Sigh.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/01/15/opinion/leonhardt-trump-racist.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-right-region&region=opinion-c-col-right-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-right-region

[Lomax]

Well I rolled my eyes when I saw the cheap comments about Aryans and the alabaster sextet. Things like that don't make me angry, just bored. Last week Theresa May reconstituted the cabinet of the UK government to include more women and demographic "minorities", in order to make it "more like the country it serves". Of course those people are still nothing like the country they serve, and such a thing cannot be reduced to genitalia or complexion. A democratic government represents its country's people's interests, not their superficial appearances.

All the same, we have to distinguish denotation from connotation and should not be naive in doing so. The sentence "Syria is a shithole country" is not racist. If Syrians are living in a shithole, which they are, then for me that makes them figures of sympathy rather than contempt. But in the context of Donald Trump's general views and behaviour, we ought to be suspicious about what motivates his somewhat unstatesmanlike choice of words. Take everything at face value if you must, but in the battle of ideas that will put you at the mercy of subtler minds.

As to whether we should make jokes about Donald Trump: of course we should. He is hilarious. The fact that he is more careful about drinking water from a glass than he is about diplomacy with the leader of the North Korean regime is very serious, but it is also funny. The fact that Trump ran on a platform of believing that America's problems were easy to solve and persisted purely on the corruption of the political establishment, only to discover early on that some problems are in fact complicated, is serious but it is also funny. Use or lose the ability to ridicule the ridiculous.

[zetreque]

The sentence "Syria is a shithole country" is not racist. If Syrians are living in a shithole, which they are,

Speaking of complicated. Are they really? Beautiful places can be found around the world even in degraded areas. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Shithole countries took to the internet posting some beautiful pictures of their home. Then you have national pride. Then you have what lead them to be a "shithole" in the first place. Could it be dominating forces from overseas that lead to the shitholeness?

A man or woman in such a position should have at least a minute clue as to this concept before opening his or her mouth.

Not to mention having at least an understanding of how people might misinterpret his words which he has encountered more times than one can count. And even being warned about that fact in person by Obama.

[Lomax]

The sentence "Syria is a shithole country" is not racist. If Syrians are living in a shithole, which they are,

Speaking of complicated. Are they really?

Take it from a Rawlsian position: if you were about to be reincarnated, and had a choice of birthplace between Syria and the USA, which would you choose? Assuming self-interest. There are presumably some happy people in every country but on the whole Syria is surely a comparatively unpleasant place to live in 2018.

The British and French empires have done a lot to make Syria a chemical-charred warzone, which doesn't change the fact that it is one. As to whether those in power should be saying such things, I wholly agree. That is why I worked in the word "unstatesmanlike".

[zetreque]

if you were about to be reincarnated, and had a choice of birthplace between Syria and the USA, which would you choose? Assuming self-interest. There are presumably some happy people in every country but on the whole Syria is surely a comparatively unpleasant place to live in 2018.

There is no choice in such a decision and people only know what they were born into. It's relative and contextual. It is also if not racist (taken out of context of the man's history), extremely offensive and degrading to use such language. It's generalized and if not short sighted just plain idiotic. Stupidity or short sighted small mindedness resonates with his fan base.

[Lomax]

There is no choice in such a decision and people only know what they were born into.

Zetreque, please don't pretend you don't understand the concept of a hypothetical question. As it happens people in different situations - both within and across international borders - do report different levels of happiness, and the UN makes a concerted effort to measure such things. I'm sure you will be staggered to discover that Syria ranks 152nd out of the 155 countries measured in the 2017 World Happiness Report. My country ranks 19th and yours ranks 14th. The country ranking 1st is Norway.

Of course, if it's all so "relative and contextual" that Syrians quite like being gassed by despots then Donald Trump's foreign and immigration policies make little difference to those people, and might as well be decided by the flip of a coin.

[zetreque]

The hypothetical question has no relevance to me here. Syria was also just one country inferred by the comment. As a global citizen, the unpresidential comment also offends me as part of the problem, not the solution.

[toucana]

According to White House press briefings reported by Washington Post staff last night, it seems that the WH now thinks that president Trump might have been misquoted.

https://twitter.com/jdawsey1/status/952720622689320962

Two arch conservative Republican senators Tom Cotton (Arkansas) and David Perdue (Georgia) who had been inserted into the meeting by Stephen Miller to 'keep things on track' originally said that they "could not recall hearing the president saying those comments specifically".

http://edition.cnn.com/2018/01/12/politics/senators-trump-comment-tom-cotton/index.html

After mature reflection, Cotton and Perdue apparently now concede that president Trump might have said "shithouse" countries rather than "shithole" countries.

Sen. Lindsey Graham the GOP leader of the bipartisan delegation was not impressed. - "I know what was said and I know what I said.. and my memory hasn’t evolved.”

[Lomax]

Ha, I'm sure it hasn't. And "house" changes everything.

[TheVat]

The country ranking 1st is Norway.

Even I, in the second generation of Norwegians in America, am pining for the fjords. And I have not joined the bloody choir invisible.

[BadgerJelly]

Biv -

Always love a Python reference!

[toucana]

In fiscal year 2016, exactly 362 Norwegians become permanent legal residents of the United States. Short of kidnapping Norwegians and using extreme rendition to coerce them to enter our shores, there is no way to increase Norwegian immigration.

And why should they come? Norway has full employment, a competitive private economy, one of the world’s most comprehensive welfare states, paid parental leave of a year after a child is born, universal health insurance, and free higher education. Its life expectancy far exceeds ours, its GDP per capita is $70,912, compared to $57,638 in the U.S. Citizen satisfaction surveys rate Norway as the world’s happiest country. And this was the case before they struck oil.

The place is pristine and almost crime-free. Indeed, from the perspective of Norway, it is America that looks like kind of a dritt hull – that’s Norwegian for shit-hole.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/how-do-you-say-shithole-in-norwegian_us_5a5c0fe4e4b0fcbc3a1167fe?section=us_politics

[Lomax]

Slightly oversells Norway - the US has a lower unemployment rate than Norway does. US PPP per capita is ~$59k while in Norway it's ~$62.5k. All the same, I can't see them queueing up.

[TheVat]

They have the resources to exonerate rats...

http://www.cnn.com/2018/01/16/health/black-death-plague-spread-by-humans-intl/index.html

...who would want to leave such a great nation? And they almost got to the North Pole! There's a museum in Oslo, IIRC, that's devoted to a failed expedition. Norwegians are a modest people - they rarely call attention to the pole they did reach first. They readily acknowledge that Scott's failure was far more interesting than Amundsen's success.

[BadgerJelly]

Here is something sort and to the point:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIPl65MulWw

I am not saying Ann Coulter is this or that, I don't care about her much, but I do regard her as being someone who at least says things that perhaps need to be discussed more. The way they edit in the sob story in this piece is exactly the kind of sentimental nonsense being pedaled too much in the media (from both sides I'd add), and it is barely relevant the points being expressed.

The most hard hitting point that MANY people refuse to accept is that this was not a public statement - BUT, he has said other things publicly that are tactless and outright offensive; and IMO because of his position he has gone a little too far there. Most politicians do so in a more cloak and dagger manner.

note: I am not a fan of Trump, nor am I a fan of the US - but in both respects there are plenty of things about the US I do praise, more so than most countries around the world, and there are VERY few things I can point out about Trump that I can praise (but there are some things.)

If you cannot find a good thing to say abot someone then look in the mirror at the monster you're hiding. I fear you more than I fear Trump make no mistake (zeq?)

[toucana]

For British readers who might not know who she is - Ann Coulter has been described as the “Katie Hopkins of America” (this was shortly before Katie Hopkins was fired by The Daily Mail who lost patience with her racism after a string of expensive libel settlements.)

Ann Coulter is said to be one of just 45 people that Donald Trump follows on Twitter. She frequently retweets extreme racist content posted by people like Jayda Fransen, deputy leader of the neo-fascist Britain First group who were associated with the murder of Labour MP Jo Cox in 2016. As such, “She effectively provides a sewer line of content to his timeline” as Huffington Post recently observed.

Here are a couple of other things Ann Coulter has said in the past
On Muslims after 9/11:

“we should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to christianity”

On nuclear radiation hazards after the Fukushima disaster in March 2011:

“There is burgeoning evidence that excess radiation operates as a sort of cancer vaccine.”

On the liberal media:

My only regret with Timothy Mcveigh is that he did not go to the New York Times building.” (Interview with New York Observer 2002)

There is plenty more :
https://www.washingtonpost.com/video/po ... 38d0bee555

[RJG]

...extremely offensive and degrading to use such language.

It's generalized and if not short sighted just plain idiotic. Stupidity or short sighted small mindedness resonates with his fan base.

********

If you cannot find a good thing to say about someone then look in the mirror at the monster you're hiding. I fear you more than I fear Trump make no mistake...

Well said Badger, ... agreed.

[BadgerJelly]

Toucan -

So you disagree with her point or just want to express hatred? Is it possible she has a point or does that come secondary to the fact she is uncouth?

Katie Hopkins is repulsive too, so what? That doesn't make everything she says complete nonsense. My general point here is to call out the refusal to deal with the words being said and instead jump to WHO is saying them.

[SciameriKen]

...extremely offensive and degrading to use such language.

It's generalized and if not short sighted just plain idiotic. Stupidity or short sighted small mindedness resonates with his fan base.

********

If you cannot find a good thing to say about someone then look in the mirror at the monster you're hiding. I fear you more than I fear Trump make no mistake...

Well said Badger, ... agreed.

Actually Zet is spot on here. Trump supporters, from my sampling of Facebook, message boards, and other social media are constantly bombarded with half truth propaganda. These are simplistic one sentence trigger statements that I would equate with "stupidity" and most policy endorsed stands to promote short-term wins as opposed to caring how such policy affects us 10-20 years down the road - precisely "small-minded shortsightedness"

Badgers larger point is taken that we should keep an open mind to the other sides arguments, but sometimes you just have to call a spade a spade.

[TheVat]

Toucan -

So you disagree with her point or just want to express hatred? Is it possible she has a point or does that come secondary to the fact she is uncouth?

Katie Hopkins is repulsive too, so what? That doesn't make everything she says complete nonsense. My general point here is to call out the refusal to deal with the words being said and instead jump to WHO is saying them.

Agree, but would point out that Toucan simply used Coulter's own words to give us some idea of who she is. I think those quotes speak for themselves, don't you?

[RJG]

Actually Zet is spot on here.

Which part is “spot on”?

Is it the part where Zet says that it is “extremely offensive” to use “such degrading language”?, …or is it the part where he calls Trump supporters “idiotic”, “stupid”, and “small mindedness”?

If you cannot find a good thing to say about someone then look in the mirror at the monster you're hiding. I fear you more than I fear Trump make no mistake...

Badgers larger point is taken that we should keep an open mind to the other sides arguments…

Yes, Badger is "spot on" here, and I certainly agree, …don’t you?

…but sometimes you just have to call a spade a spade.

…and a hypocrite a hypocrite?

[SciameriKen]

Actually Zet is spot on here.

Which part is “spot on”?

Is it the part where Zet says that it is “extremely offensive” to use “such degrading language”?, …or is it the part where he calls Trump supporters “idiotic”, “stupid”, and “small mindedness”?

If you cannot find a good thing to say about someone then look in the mirror at the monster you're hiding. I fear you more than I fear Trump make no mistake...

Badgers larger point is taken that we should keep an open mind to the other sides arguments…

Yes, Badger is "spot on" here, and I certainly agree, …don’t you?

…but sometimes you just have to call a spade a spade.

…and a hypocrite a hypocrite?

Zet is calling the content and the method of message delivery stupid, short-sighted, and idiotic and that this resonates with his fan base - and it does. But nice try RJG.

[BadgerJelly]

Sci -

Badgers larger point is taken that we should keep an open mind to the other sides arguments, but sometimes you just have to call a spade a spade.

No, my point is you shouldn't conflate what a person says with who they are or ignore what they say because you think they are representing something you dislike. This is because when you hear someone else saying the same thing as those from "the other side" you're inclined to attach a label to them and think of them as being the same as X or Y.

Biv -

Did Toucan make an attempt to address what was said in the clip I posted? No.

He thought it better to present a picture of the kind of person she is and deflect any relevance of the words.
Therefore when someone says something like what she says they are then equated with Ann Coulter, rather than the position being expressed.

This is a perfect demonstration of what worries me about how people choose to perceive opponents as unworthy people who use nothing more than vitriol to gather a following.

[SciameriKen]

Sci -

Badgers larger point is taken that we should keep an open mind to the other sides arguments, but sometimes you just have to call a spade a spade.

No, my point is you shouldn't conflate what a person says with who they are or ignore what they say because you think they are representing something you dislike. This is because when you hear someone else saying the same thing as those from "the other side" you're inclined to attach a label to them and think of them as being the same as X or Y.

This is noble but not so easily done. There is team red and there is team blue - there is no room for a third team. As soon as you argue against one team it by default means you are on the other team. I get hit with this from both sides, just the nature of the world. Just to play Devil's advocate - why shouldn't I make these assumptions? It will most likely save me a lot of time from listening to inane comments!

[TheVat]

This is a perfect demonstration of what worries me about how people choose to perceive opponents as unworthy people who use nothing more than vitriol to gather a following.

- Gelee de Blaireau

The problem, if you live here in the States and pay attention to the far Right talking point mill, is that it's hard to find anything but vitriol, innuendo, cherry-picked stats, and outright lies. My saying this is not a personal attack, just an observation on the sort of political hacks who are getting a lot of attention and clicks. I don't want to "choose to perceive" the Breitbartists and the Coulters and the InfoWarriors as unworthy, but I cannnot help but have eyes and ears that receive an alarming proportion of garbage from those sources. When opinion, and opinion built on cherry-picked facts and unproved rumors, is offered as "news," then I cannot find it to be worthy, whatever the personal traits of the person offering it.

Confusing news and opinion, if you will recall your history, is the goal of propagandists, not professional journalists.

For example, Trump's alienation of Mexico and trashing of NAFTA has recently caused Mexico to negotiate a trade deal with Argentina, who will now sell grain to Mexico. Grain they would formerly buy from the USA. This results in a loss of at least $13 billion to American farmers. Has Fox News or Breitbart reported this? They have not. And yet it seems an important story, given that it demonstrates the Trump's policies are achieving the precise opposite of what he promised the nation when running for President: to support American businesses and boost jobs. The destruction of NAFTA is doing the opposite. Why would I respect any source that utterly ignores this very alarming development? Just one of literally hundreds of examples.

[RJG]

Zet is calling the content and the method of message delivery stupid, short-sighted, and idiotic and that this resonates with his fan base - and it does.

...and this somehow makes it "less offensive" to Trump supporters???

If so, then I'm glad you take no offense with my saying that hypocritical-ism fully resonates with Trump haters (...which it does!).


SciKen, you can't have it both ways. You can never logically 'justify' your own offending/hating while 'condemning' those that offend/hate. Hating the haters, and offending the offenders is pure hypocritical BS. No truth comes from this.

...we should keep an open mind to the other sides arguments...

Yes, we all should practice what you preach here!