Autoimmunity

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Autoimmunity

Postby zetreque on December 9th, 2017, 3:51 pm 

This should be a good docuseries. The intro video isn't that good but I enjoy Tom O'Bryan and he has a way to express one of the most important messages in health that the modern world needs to hear.

http://betrayaldocumentary.com/


I have also been enjoying some of these this week. You can check out a great Tom O'Bryan interview here too. These videos are only viewable this weekend then it converts to paywall.
https://crohnsandcolitissummit.com/sessions/
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Re: Autoimmunity

Postby doogles on December 10th, 2017, 3:00 am 

Thanks for that Zetrique. I've listed my name to see the series out of curiosity. I'm having a private bet that he's advocating natural, unprocessed food, natural water instead of treated water, and living in 'clean' air environments - essentially a paleo- diet and lifestyle.

I can rationalise that our overall physiological functions have evolved over a million years or so of that kind of diet and environment, and that a possibility exists that we have not all adapted yet to today's processed and synthetic foods and additives.

I hope he has supporting data of the type he mentioned for the lady with MS.
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Re: Autoimmunity

Postby doogles on December 12th, 2017, 1:03 am 

I just managed to wade through the first free video for an hour or more, hoping to hear about some new theory associated with auto-immunity.

I found myself writhing in my seat, wondering when they were going to get to the point.

From about two minutes in, I was starting to get the same feelings I experienced when, out of curiosity, I followed one of those ads that claims you should not eat a particular foodstuff or perform a specific type of exercise. You follow multiple links expounding the virtues of the advice until you come to the final one that asks for $30.75 and then you will receive the secret.

I will watch the next one out of curiosity, but I'll skip the track along 5 or 10 minute intervals, watch for a minute or so, until I'm clear about what they are up to.
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Re: Autoimmunity

Postby doogles on December 12th, 2017, 10:58 pm 

It's seems to me now that the promoters of this video series are hoping to develop a market for the videos themselves.

The second video in the series had more substance than the first. Many points were made, albeit anecdotal. No scientific studies have been cited yet.

My take on the points so far are
1. Most degenerative diseases (not just auto-immune ones) can be traced to faulty gut function or food intake (including maybe the health and suitability of saprophytic gut microbes).
2. This is referred to now as 'Functional Medicine'.
3. "Leaky Gut" is a condition in which the alimentary canal mucosa allows too many undesirable substances to pass across the mucosa into the bloodstream, causing over-strain on the immune system, and the development of antibodies to these ‘foreign’ substances as well as ‘combinations of these substance with normal tissues’.
4. Wheat is bad for gut mucosal health, is possibly the main cause of leaky gut, and should be minimal in human diets. It causes inflammation.
5. All people should check the health of their alimentary canal function by inspecting their own faeces before flushing the toilet, by timing the passage of food by eating a couple of cobs of corn and observing the period it takes for corns to appear in faeces. GPs should organise checks of faecal specimens from patients for evidence of parasites of any kind.
6. Diets need to be adequate in minerals and vitamins and allowances made for malabsorption by some individuals.
7. All patients with Lupus, examined by one specialist, had low to markedly low blood concentrations of vitamin D.
8. Vitamin D plays a very important role in the function of the immune system.

I am now motivated to see if I can find any literature supporting these claims.
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Re: Autoimmunity

Postby zetreque on December 12th, 2017, 11:20 pm 

I'll leave others to comment on this and I'll just let them come to their own conclusions while I sit on my "high horse" apparently (referencing another thread). This is very personal for me because I was one of those people in this series who almost died and I took it upon myself to figure this out and I would not be here typing today if I had not figured out this exact concept explained in these videos. I have my own evidence through my own recovery and my stacks of lab test results to back up their claims. I also have my own evidence through my family who has done this, close friends, and people I meet all the time going through it. I have not watched the second episode yet, will momentarily. I have already watched/listened to about ~500 hours of this stuff along with years of my own research and careful self experimentation. I had the advantage of seeing previous videos where this concept is condensed into a couple minutes so it's interesting to see the response of others who may not even have any of this stuff on their radar and look into it. This series is to reach the masses of people who are new to it all and the way it's marketed is typical/very common for these doctors to share the information for free while still collecting some money to continue their efforts from people who want to purchase them. I swore if I recovered I would try to help others suffering as I did because it's unbearable but unfortunately I meet a lot of resistance at times, even from those that are suffering or regarding the science. I still try to spread this message though because our toxic world and man-made foods is really taking it's toll on us and the environment and so many people are just oblivious or in denial of it.
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Re: Autoimmunity

Postby doogles on December 13th, 2017, 4:58 am 

Good on you Zetrique. I admire anyone who researches subjects for themselves.

This field of investigation is quite new to me. I'm the world's greatest skeptic and like to research all working theories on everything that passes my way.

In this case, the first video contained no substance, but the second made some interesting points.

I've had a quick look at the role of wheat in damaging intestinal linings and the literature generally supports that notion.

I've copied a couple of references below. I haven't polished them up and they appear largely as I copied them.

This 2017 article in the journal Nutrients claims a role for certain types of wheat and their processed products in the development of Type 1 diabetes (T1D). The Introduction gives a brief summary of known literature.
http://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/9/5/482/htm

1. Introduction "The incidence of Type 1 Diabetes (T1D), an autoimmune disease causing damage to the pancreatic beta cells, has doubled in the last decade [1]. The development of T1D involves a complex interaction between a person’s genetic background and environmental factors such as nutrition [2]. A significant increase of T1D in Sweden was associated with radical changes of food habits including increased consumption of pasta, white bread, meat, cheese, low-fat milk, exotic fruits, soda, and wheat-based snacks [3]. Adverse health effects of cereal proteins [2,4,5], cow’s milk proteins [6,7], and low vitamin D [4,7] on the onset of T1D have been demonstrated. Worldwide, wheat is the main staple food after maize and rice, and it is not surprising that a number of studies have suggested dietary wheat to be diabetogenic in humans [4]. The diabetogenic effects of wheat have also been demonstrated in Non-Obese Diabetic (NOD) mice [2,8,9]. Furthermore, an association between wheat gluten and celiac disease, and co-occurrence of both celiac disease and T1D have been documented [4,10,11,12,13,14]. People with celiac disease are at risk for diabetes [11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20]."

The conclusion in the Abstract states – “The Non-Obese Diabetic (NOD) mouse model was used to monitor the effects of dietary wheat sources on the onset and development of T1D. The effects of modern wheat flour were compared with those from either T. aestivum, T. turgidum spp. dicoccoides, or T. turgidum spp. dicoccum landraces or a non-wheat diet. Animals which received wheat from local landraces or ancestral species such as emmer displayed a lower incidence of T1D and related complications compared to animals fed a modern wheat variety. This study is the first report of the diabetogenic properties of various dietary wheat sources and suggests that alternative dietary wheat sources may lack T1D linked epitopes, thus reducing the incidence of T1D.”

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 13354/full

The Abstract in this article suggests that true Wheat Allergies and Coeliac Disease are quite rare, but that there is now a large group of people claiming marked improvement in general health by going onto Gluten Free Diets. It urges more research on the issue of course, but there seems to be a class of people who benefit from eliminating wheat products from their diets. I'm convinced enough at the moment to be one of those people who will try a gluten-free diet for a few weeks just to see if I feel any different.

Modern strains of wheat appear to be causing more problems in experimental mice than ancestral species.
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Re: Autoimmunity

Postby Braininvat on December 13th, 2017, 10:49 am 

I've tried a minimal wheat diet, eating mostly potatoes and oats to replace the calories lost. I didn't notice much change except for cravings that were, I strongly suspect, driven by psychological factors - some breads and pastas are "comfort food."

The 8 points listed by Doogles are well worth further research. Number 3, leaky gut, seems to have a lot of support in the research I have seen.
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Re: Autoimmunity

Postby doogles on December 15th, 2017, 7:01 am 

I viewed the 3rd and 4th videos over the last couple of days, although my daily routines have been a bit out of whack due to a second cataract operation.

I haven't had time to reflect on the material nor to do any further research yet, but my initial reaction to the last two viewings was that they did not offer anything that was not covered in the second video.

A surprising (to me) statement made by one of the 'specialists' was that all of the modern grains were somewhat novel, and therefore alien to human digestion. Certainly the improved strains appear to be much more nutritious than the ancestral strains, but I had a notion that the paleo- diet included the seeds of natural grasses.

I'm still motivated to research this subject further.
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Re: Autoimmunity

Postby zetreque on December 15th, 2017, 10:46 am 

Here is one of the papers cited by the author/director in a more recent interview.

Maternal Antibodies to Dietary Antigens and Risk for Nonaffective Psychosis in offspring
https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/pdf/10.1176/appi.ajp.2012.11081197
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Re: Autoimmunity

Postby Braininvat on December 15th, 2017, 2:07 pm 

There is quite a bit of conflicting information out there, especially on lectins, which are currently under the spotlight for their negative effects on the gut and the immune and cardio system (when they pass through the walls of the villi). I have been reading about lectins, and the various perspectives. Dr. Gundry is strongly against having much lectin protein in the diet and recommends avoiding pretty much everything from melons to beans to grains. (he also has a strong financial interest in promoting that diet, so I have to bear that in mind) Other sources say that sprouted grains, much lower in lectins, are okay, and that some rhizomes like purple sweet potatoes are okay. I was amused to learn that white bread, long a villain to health food proponents, is lower in lectins than whole wheat (of course it's lower in other stuff that's good for gut flora, like fiber and various nutrients).

This link was useful, assembling some info about lectins:

https://www.precisionnutrition.com/all-about-lectins

As far as I can tell, you would have to give up a vegan/vegetarian diet in order to implement a really low-lectin diet and get enough nutrients to survive. OTOH, if your ideal meal consists of grilled fish, olive oil on Romaine lettuce and cucumber, a chunk of dark chocolate, and a baked Japanese sweet potato swimming in turmeric sauce, then you're good to go.
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Re: Autoimmunity

Postby zetreque on December 15th, 2017, 2:23 pm 

On the opposite side of Gundry is John Robbins who claims that pressure cooking destroys all lectins and that anything bought in a can has already been pressure cooked and doesn't contain them. Robbins also has a strong bias for vegetarianism.
Of course the point of the whole documentary series is that people can get tested to see if they individually have a problem with compounds like that contributing to inflammation or not which will help them in adapting their diet.
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Re: Autoimmunity

Postby doogles on December 16th, 2017, 1:23 am 

It’s interesting that even a form of psychosis has been associated with IgG positives for gliadins, Zetrique.Thank you for that.

One of my co-morbidities is Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease (CPOD). It’s about the ONLY geriatric condition that has not cleared up or improved since I began taking vitamin K supplements. I’ve also had bronchial asthma since about the age of 14. As I’ve said, the leaky gut concept is new to me, so I checked to see if there was any association with respiratory conditions.

This 1996 article - http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 4996701811 - used ‘chromium 51–labeled ethylenediaminetetraacetatic acid (CrEDTA) urinary recovery’ as a biomarker for ‘leaky gut’. Part of the conclusion was that “Urinary recovery of CrEDTA was significantly higher in patients with asthma (2.5% ± 1.95%) than in patients with chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (1.16% ± 0.48%) and healthy control subjects (1.36% ± 0.14%). There was no significant difference in intestinal permeability between patients with allergic asthma (2.94% ± 2.4%) and those with nonallergic asthma (1.92% ± 0.9%).”

I found it interesting that what I considered to be an acute, sporadic allergic condition (bronchial asthma) was associated with ‘leaky gut’, but that the chronic degenerative disease (CPOD) was not.

And Braininvat, thank you for the ref on lectins. The mixed messages now about what is safe and what is not safe to imbibe in order to have a healthy alimentary canal microbiome make the ‘science’ murkier and murkier.

Your dietary advice – “OTOH, if your ideal meal consists of grilled fish, olive oil on Romaine lettuce and cucumber, a chunk of dark chocolate, and a baked Japanese sweet potato swimming in turmeric sauce, then you're good to go” – sounds as good as anything at this stage.

I’d better have a look at video 5 now before the day runs out.
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Re: Autoimmunity

Postby Braininvat on December 16th, 2017, 1:46 pm 

I have been sticking with text sources, because I prefer text (with references/bibliog.) to videos. The videos in the OP asked me to give my name and email (I don't wish to get on another mailing list), and then the Capcha puzzle didn't display properly and I couldn't complete it.

One issue that seems to generate a lot of controversy is the degree to which lectins are a problem for most of the population. As Z. noted, John Robbins asserts that pressure cooking will break down the harmful ones, and thus allow a vegan diet. Pressure-cooked lentils, combined with sprouted wheat bread (sprouting grains greatly reduces lectins), would provide a low-lectin meal, in Robbins's view. I suspect only the most dedicated vegan would go so far as to pressure-cook peanuts, however. I have yet to find studies that compare longterm health profiles of vegans who eat low-lectin v. high-lectin diets, or of omnivores, either. Physicians, like Steven Gundry, seem to offer a lot of anecdotes (I had this patient. He eliminated lectins. It was amazing.), but I'm still not seeing enough real evidence to support his more "Palaeo" approach, where legumes, grains, dairy, Nightshade veggies (tomato, potato, bell pepper, et al.) are eliminated. For a lot of lactovegetarians, what Gundry strikes off the list is pretty much their entire diet. When all you've got left, as a vegetarian, is pasture eggs, Japanese yams, Taro root, and Romaine lettuce with high-phenol oils, you will probably need a truly compelling reason to chain yourself to that for decades of your life. Imagine trying to take a long trip, with such dietary requirements. I guess you'd do okay if you happen to be flying to Okinawa and refuse the airline food, hehe.

I'm also curious about several of these diets that reject New World plants, on the theoretical basis that people of European or African or Asian descent have not had time to adapt to the lectins in the New World. I have to wonder how the Irish took so readily to the Peruvian potato and made it a beloved staple. (and there seem to be conflicting messages here, too - some say avoid taters entirely, while others say that peeling the skin suffices to eliminate lectins - the research I've scanned seems to favor the latter view)

I'm hitting too many bold assertions and not enough science. It's a reminder that nutrition science is very much in its infancy.
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Re: Autoimmunity

Postby zetreque on December 16th, 2017, 1:52 pm 

Braininvat » Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:46 am wrote: It's a reminder that nutrition science is very much in its infancy.


Which is why I am into this video series and what these doctors are researching and talking about.
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Re: Autoimmunity

Postby Braininvat on December 16th, 2017, 2:00 pm 

That's cool. I'm just suggesting text links and primary sources would help some of us who like to absorb information in that way. And explaining why I haven't yet watched the video, due to the technical problems. (and time issues - I tend to hoover up print information a lot faster)


And then there's the whole A1 versus A2 milk issue. If you've seen cartons of milk recently at the grocery store that say "A2" in big letters, here is what that's about.....

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/a1-vs-a2-milk

Goat milk is also supposed to be better, having the better form of casein, and other good qualities, like fewer bad lectins. Generally, grass-fed dairy cows produce milk with fewer bad lectins, than do corn-fed cows.
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Re: Autoimmunity

Postby zetreque on December 16th, 2017, 2:03 pm 

Braininvat » Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:00 am wrote:
Goat milk is also supposed to be better, having the better form of casein, and other good qualities, like fewer bad lectins. Generally, grass-fed dairy cows produce milk with fewer bad lectins, than do corn-fed cows.


Mentioned in the series as well and I agree that I wish they would make an effort to put a lot more citations into the video series and credits. I still use it as a starting point for numerous research inquiries. Out to the cold to replace a clutch master cylinder. bbl
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Re: Autoimmunity

Postby doogles on December 17th, 2017, 3:55 am 

Braininvat, when you said “I have been sticking with text sources, because I prefer text (with references/bibliog.) to videos”, you echoed my own sentiments.

I realise I possess a level of ‘bloody-mindedness’ about finishing things (that I start) to the point where it’s more of a handicap than a blessing. That’s the situation I’m in at the moment as I view the ‘Betrayal’ series of videos. Episode 6 took two hours. My emotional state as I watch is the same as I would experience if I were strapped in a chair with my eyes stitched open and forced to watch 7 or 8 hours of repeats of “Attacks of the Killer Tomatoes”. I can feel a degree of brain degeneration setting in.

I also echo the sentiments expressed in your final sentence a couple of posts ago, “I'm hitting too many bold assertions and not enough science. It's a reminder that nutrition science is very much in its infancy.”

I see that Zetrique agrees as well.

I haven’t researched the A1 and A2 milks as you have, but, being naturally sceptical, I suspect that it’s more of a gimmick marketed to gain marginally more milk sales at a higher price than a sound health investment.

I imagine it would take years of controlled longitudinal experimentation In many areas to determine whether the casein of any one mammal is ‘better’ than another.

I guess I’m still curious enough to continue doing as you profess, Zetrique – to “… still use it as a starting point for numerous research inquiries.” Once again I applaud you for that balanced approach

At the finish of the video series, if I have any neurones left, I’ll have a go at a brief synopsis for anyone to kick around.
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Re: Autoimmunity

Postby Braininvat on December 17th, 2017, 12:33 pm 

My emotional state as I watch is the same as I would experience if I were strapped in a chair with my eyes stitched open and forced to watch 7 or 8 hours of repeats of “Attacks of the Killer Tomatoes”. I can feel a degree of brain degeneration setting in.


LOL. At least the Killer Tomatoes film had George Clooney.

Since tomatoes are in the Nightshade family, I guess we now understand the "killer" aspect better.
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Re: Autoimmunity

Postby doogles on December 18th, 2017, 6:38 am 

I completed a synopsis of the OP video series okay, but as I was completing it, I developed the feeling that I could be breeching copyright. My synopsis virtually describes what the series is about and in that sense could be construed as containing enough information to make it unnecessary for anyone to purchase the series.

I might just leave it for now to say that in spite of many statements made in the series that I personally regard as questionable, I'm quite convinced that the main arguments make much sense and are well worth a try.

Allergies and auto-immunity have always puzzled me. The working theories and evidence presented here are as good as anything I've seen.

My main negatives addressed to the videos, was in the painfully long time they take to make a point, compared with concise text.

I'll give some consideration to what parts I can raise for discussion in the next day or so.
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Re: Autoimmunity

Postby doogles on December 19th, 2017, 1:33 am 

Braininvat » Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:33 pm wrote:
My emotional state as I watch is the same as I would experience if I were strapped in a chair with my eyes stitched open and forced to watch 7 or 8 hours of repeats of “Attacks of the Killer Tomatoes”. I can feel a degree of brain degeneration setting in.


LOL. At least the Killer Tomatoes film had George Clooney.

Since tomatoes are in the Nightshade family, I guess we now understand the "killer" aspect better.


I thought this was a good one Braininvat, but I neglected to acknowledge it yesterday.

Of interest, I did an ancient course called Materia Medica in 1952, and one of the substances in use then for diarrhoea was Extract of Belladona. I think I used some on calves during my first year or two of veterinary practice. And atropine sulphate injection intravenously worked like magic on cases of spasmodic colic in cattle and horses.
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Re: Autoimmunity

Postby doogles on December 19th, 2017, 1:55 am 

I watched Episode 8 this morning. Once again it was highly anecdotal. It covered about 6 patients who claimed they'd suffered decades of failure of treatment for a wide variety of clinical cases that all resolved under Functional Medicine guidance. Some of the patients were highly emotional about the absolute desperation they'd experienced in their previous states of health.

I set out to check the literature under the Google heading of FUNCTIONAL MEDICINE. The Wikipedia report is quite negative (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leaky_gut_syndrome ). My impression is that the Wikipedia researcher has put quite a negative spin on his/her report.

For example the link with ‘Leaky Gut Syndrome’ (https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/leaky-gut-syndrome/ ) uses the argument that because there is NO evidence to support the existence of such a syndrome, it does not exist – “While it's true that some conditions and medications can cause a "leaky" gut (what scientists call increased intestinal permeability), there is currently little evidence to support the theory that a porous bowel is the direct cause of any significant, widespread problems.”

I find that argument somewhat implausible because that would have been the case before any currently recognised syndrome in modern medicine was ever documented as an identifiable cluster of clinical signs.

This one knocks it - https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/functi ... -medicine/ - as quackery.

This one supports it - http://drhyman.com/about-2/about-functional-medicine/
…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………
Then I used the key terms in Google Scholar – IgG IgA GLUTEN GLIADINS. I found the following

Gliadin-related antibodies in schizophrenia by Cihakova et al
http://www.schres-journal.com/article/S0920-9964(17)30527-3/abstract “Gluten sensitivity (GS), a distinctly different immune response from celiac disease (CD), is believed to be associated with neurologic and psychiatric manifestations. Schizophrenia has been linked to enhanced immune reactivity to gluten (Jackson et al., 2012b). Recently, the production of AGA IgG antibodies has been proposed as a marker of GS. AGA IgG in schizophrenia have been associated with increased peripheral (Demyanovich et al., 2017) and central immune reactions (Rowland et al., 2017), and lower positive symptom scores as measured by the Brief Psychiatric Rating Scale (Jackson et al., 2014), suggesting that an AGA IgG positive population of schizophrenia could be a distinct subgroup.”
………………………………………………………………………
Gluten and non-gluten proteins of wheat as target antigens in autism, Crohn’s and celiac disease by Vojdani & Vojdani
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 1017302059
Highlights

"Antibodies to wheat proteins are important in autism spectrum disorder, Crohn’s and celiac disease.
Blood samples reacted to both gluten and non-gluten proteins.
Reaction against CXCR3-binding gliadin peptide was strongest.
CXCR3-binding gliadin peptide may be considered as a novel target."
…………………………………………………………………………….
Differential antibody responses to gliadin-derived indigestible peptides in patients with schizophrenia by McLean et al
https://www.nature.com/articles/tp201789 “Abstract
Gluten consumption has previously been implicated in the development of schizophrenia while an immunological link between gluten and schizophrenia was established by the detection of circulating antibodies against gliadin, a major component of wheat gluten. Several studies have reported an increase in circulating antibodies against native gliadin molecules that are unlikely to survive degradation in the digestive system. In this study, therefore, we measured plasma immunoglobulin G (IgG) and IgA antibodies against indigestible gliadin-derived peptide antigens using an in-house enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay (ELISA) among 169 patients with schizophrenia and 236 control subjects. We also examined the plasma levels of IgG and IgA antibodies against the mixture of native gliadins using commercially available ELISA kits. The results showed that patients with schizophrenia had the increased levels of plasma IgG against the γ-gliadin-derived fragment, namely AAQ6C, but decreased levels of plasma IgG against the α- and γ3-gliadin-derived antigens, as compared with control subjects. This study also demonstrated a uniform decrease in plasma IgA antibodies against gliadin-derived antigens. There was no significant difference in the levels of plasma antibodies against native gliadins between the patient group and the control group. Of eight gliadin-derived antigens tested, four showed a sensitivity of >20% against the specificity of ⩾95% for detection of their corresponding antibodies in plasma. These four tests may thus have a potential to serve as biomarkers for the identification of schizophrenia subgroups that may need an alternative therapy or precision treatment. Further investigation with clinical trials should be carried out to explore this possibility.”
………………………………………………………………………………
The above are just a few of the papers published in 2017 on wheat protein serology.

In the “Betrayal” series of videos, one immunologist who regularly tested for glutens, lectins, dairy products, and human tissues, found that 76% had IgGs to gliadins. She expressed the opinion that glutens bind to human tissues and that antibodies knock out these bonded tissues. The last Abstract above implied that positives were common in the control group.

In another video, an immunologist claimed that there can be manifestations of auto-immunity as a variety of brain and personality dysfunctions. The immunologist who’d been testing for antibodies to normal tissues claimed that of those patients with wheat sensitivities, 26% had antibodies to cerebellum and 22% to myelin. Anxiety and depression patients have antibodies to normal brain tissue.

Another speaker claimed that of patients sensitive to glutens, 53% had antibodies to their own tissues with neurological tissues the most common, followed by adrenal tissues and then heart tissues.

None of the references I’ve cited above explored that angle. Maybe most people have antibodies to glutens, and that the antibodies needing to be explored as well are those to normal tissues – as discussed in the videos.

I still have an open mind but I'm leaning toward the leaky gut theory with gluten acting as some kind of trigger.
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Re: Autoimmunity

Postby Hendrick Laursen on January 5th, 2018, 12:25 pm 

Thought-provoking discussion, but one important point seems to have been missed.

Most diseases can be formulated as a combination of genetic predisposition and environmental triggers.

The pathway ending up in allergy or hypersensitivity reactions, diverges early from the normal humoral response (via different interleukins and other intercellular communications). So, in the plainest sense of speech and with a bit over-generalizing, the less we get exposed to foreign agents, the morr we are likely to develop hypersensitivity reactions.

Throwing my two-cents BTW. :)
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Re: Autoimmunity

Postby zetreque on January 5th, 2018, 12:32 pm 

Thanks Hendrick, Tom O'bryan covers that concept pretty well. Even if it wasn't clear in the series, his other talks do.
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Re: Autoimmunity

Postby doogles on January 6th, 2018, 6:22 am 

As I said at the start, this notion of immunological reactions to wheat proteins was new to me. I thought that the video series called Betrayal was tedious to watch, but at the same time I felt that the anecdotal ideas presented, had plausibility.

I have searched the literature and found that a large amount of research has been conducted on the subject over the last couple of decades and that the more I read, the more I am convinced that non-coeliac wheat sensitivity may serve as an explanation for a large number of miscellaneous and largely incurable chronic diseases involving all tissues of the human body.

The notion of ‘leaky gut’ has received some adverse comments in the literature, from the angle that it has not been proven yet. But I found one particular paper that appealed to me once again because of its novelty to me. It was titled “Zonulin, regulation of tight junctions, and autoimmune diseases”, written by Alessio Fasano and available on https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3384703/ .

Have any of you heard of “Zonulin”?

The author states “Our discovery of zonulin, the only known physiologic modulator of intercellular TJ (Tight Junctions between gut mucosal cells) described so far, increased understanding of the intricate mechanisms that regulate the intestinal epithelial paracellular pathway and led us appreciate that its up-regulation in genetically susceptible individuals leads to autoimmune diseases.”
“In the past decade we have focused our research effort on the discovery and characterization of zonulin as the only human protein discovered to date that is known to reversibly regulate intestinal permeability by modulating intercellular TJs (12–14). Zonulin expression is augmented in autoimmune conditions associated with TJ dysfunction, including celiac disease (CD) and T1D (13,15). Both animal studies (16) and human trials (17) using the zonulin synthetic peptide inhibitor AT1001 (now named Larazotide acetate) established that zonulin is integrally involved in the pathogenesis of autoimmune diseases.Improved hygiene leading to a reduced exposure to microorganisms have been implicated as one possible cause for the ‘epidemic’ of immune-mediated diseases, particularly autoimmune diseases, in industrialized countries during the past 3–4 decades (1). Collectively, autoimmune diseases are highly prevalent in the U.S., affecting between 14.7 and 23.5 million people — up to 8 percent of the population (2).” …
“In the past decade we have focused our research effort on the discovery and characterization of zonulin as the only human protein discovered to date that is known to reversibly regulate intestinal permeability by modulating intercellular TJs (12–14). Zonulin expression is augmented in autoimmune conditions associated with TJ dysfunction, including celiac disease (CD) and T1D (13,15). Both animal studies (16) and human trials (17) using the zonulin synthetic peptide inhibitor AT1001 (now named Larazotide acetate) established that zonulin is integrally involved in the pathogenesis of autoimmune diseases.”
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Re: Autoimmunity

Postby zetreque on January 6th, 2018, 3:00 pm 

This is the test O'Bryan likes along with Cyrex Array 5 that looks at the main known antibody responses to different organ tissues.

VIBRANT WHEAT ZOOMER INCLUDES:

All known deamidated gliadins

Alpha
-
Beta, gamma, and omega gliadin

HMW and LMW glutenin family

Tri A37, wheat allergen

Differential transglutaminase 2,
3 and 6

Zonulin protein and actin

Somatostatin

Wheat germ agglutinin (WGA)

Non-
gluten wheat proteins
Farinins
Serpins
Peroxiredoxin
Globulins

http://thedr.com/wp-content/uploads/201 ... mer_NP.pdf
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Re: Autoimmunity

Postby doogles on January 7th, 2018, 7:28 am 

That's very helpful Zetrique.

I see that Zonulin is on the list you provided.

I'll keep doing some reading on this subject. One of the things that's difficult to find is a list of documented cases of cure or control, using the principles of leaky gut.

I must admit that I'm a bit pragmatic by nature and that my first choice would be to go onto a strict non-wheat diet in the first instance, rather than have a whole battery of tests conducted.

Certainly a whole battery of tests would be useful initially for anyone conducting research in the area.
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Re: Autoimmunity

Postby zetreque on January 7th, 2018, 1:50 pm 

I'd love to get the tests but they are expensive and I already do a wheat free diet.
Obryan swears that anyone and everyone should do the test even if they are just to make sure wheat isn't sneaking in or they aren't eating cross reactive proteins from other grains.
In other videos he talks about lots of case studies where someone was wheat free and seemingly healthy as can be but tested positive to agents attacking certain organ tissues that were hereditary. Says they found the culprits and eliminated the antibodies down to normal levels.
On the other hand he talks about people who have the tests done, find nothing and still have problems. It sounded like there was a whole new panel of tests coming out to test for more things they have discovered.
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Re: Autoimmunity

Postby doogles on January 8th, 2018, 5:53 am 

Apropos of 'other grains' Zetrique, wouldn't it be sensible in a personal trial of withdrawal of certain foods to just simply exclude ALL monocotyledon products in the first instance.

Way back in the OP of this thread I think I made a bet that the principle of a palaeo- (Braininvat set a precedent by using this correct archaic spelling in an earlier post: he's a bright buggar and takes some keeping up with) diets would turn out to be the basis of the 'leaky gut' syndromes. I see three principles in the theory.

1) The basic principle inherent in this thread that is also new to me is that protein digestion requires specific enzymes. My preconceived notion until now was that hydrochloric acid and pepsins were non-specific protein digesters and that any protein would be 'digested' and prepared for absorption into the blood stream quite non-specifically.

I don't mind admitting that I have been naïve in this matter and that this is the first lesson I've gleaned in this thread, thanks to you all.

So the message here is that we have no gut enzymes capable of digesting wheat- (and most probably) other grain proteins because our remote caveman ancestors did not eat them. And we have not yet had enough evolutionary time for junk genes to become incorporated into our genomes to produce them.

We are talking about millions of years and not the 23000 years when archaeologists studied that site in a dried-up Israeli lake where they discovered grinding stones and grass pollens.

2) Of course, the gut has to be leaky for large molecule undigested proteins to pass into the blood stream. The cause of this of course may need a fair amount of research to identify. An intact gut should not allow any molecules larger than a few microns diameter to slip between cells because of Tight Junctions under Zonulin regulation to pass.

3) Of course, there is also the theory that these large alien molecules have the capacity not only stress the basic immunological system making us susceptible to any invasion from any other pathogens, but also to combine with almost a random selection of 'normal' tissues and in so doing make them vulnerable then to auto-immunological reactions.

I hope I have got these principles correct and would obviously appreciate corrections from anybody. I can see merit in the theories. They make sense to me. I think this theory is extremely important for the following reason:

If I am correct, I can see for the first time where genetically modified foods can be a problem. The aim of genetic modifications is to genetically change the proteins in foods. So if we have more proteins in our diets without specific enzymes to digest them, we may have more immunological reactions at the gut mucous membrane level; we may have more "foreign" proteins entering our blood vascular systems if we have leaky gut; and we may have more auto-immune conditions if these genetically-modified proteons combine with our normal tissues.

I am now regarding this specificity of protein-enzyme-digestion and leaky-gut condition as quite serious. I would appreciate any input without side-tracking into peripherally-related areas as so often happens in this forum.
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Re: Autoimmunity

Postby Braininvat on January 8th, 2018, 10:59 am 

I've had good results with sprouted grains. The process of germination and sprouting creates enzymes that aid digestion of grain proteins and reduces lectins and other protein that may trigger wheat sensitivity. Seems to be some evidence that sprouted wheat bread has more available protein and vitamins. I've eliminated all wheat from my diet except for a few slices of sprout bread per day, and noticed a decrease in sleepy logy feeling in the afternoon. Given that whole grain bread is a good delivery system for several nutrients, I think this is a good area for further research. Obviously, it won't help true coeliacs, but it might help those with some wheat sensitivity who are reluctant to give up their daily bread.

Like Doogles, I have been surprised to learn about the complexities of protein digestion, having also been in past thinking simplistically in terms of HCl/pepsin.
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Re: Autoimmunity

Postby zetreque on January 8th, 2018, 1:28 pm 

propos of 'other grains' Zetrique, wouldn't it be sensible in a personal trial of withdrawal of certain foods to just simply exclude ALL monocotyledon products in the first instance.


True, but for someone like me who has a history of this and already has (tested verified) intolerance to many foods, it is important to take every precaution possible. It would also be a shame to go to unnecessary effort attempting to live a "normal" life in society to take out foods that help obtain nutrition and calories after having already been forced to give up so many foods.

To be more clear, I had the food IgG test done and a 1 year follow up along with biopsy. The theory as described fit into my situation. As I eliminated the most problematic foods, many other food antibody levels went down as the gut improved.

I still try to avoid all grains because they appear to worsen my quality of health from an observational point, but I also have confirmed through testing that there are foods that cause me great problem despite not physically feeling or noticing them doing so. Avoiding all grains is difficult. Also, many industries use the same silo's, transportation, and facilities equipment for multiple food processes. The reason for testing is for intolerant, have a severe immune response or people concerned about optimal health to make sure none of the foods from what they consider trusted sources is cross contaminated with a trigger against their immune system and interrupting their protocol.

Additional research and confirmation through testing can also help us make future decisions on GMO's by empowering the public and academic research.

Perhaps one of the most important reasons to do this test is it lends to real evidence, a reminder, how important it is and motivation to stay away from certain foods in the name of my survival and health-span. This is true for me, or even someone who doesn't think they have a problem with certain foods.

2) Of course, the gut has to be leaky for large molecule undigested proteins to pass into the blood stream.
Could you please clarify this statement?

-----

Your post is a good case summary of why I think this is such an important topic for the medical world. Species evolving to exploit a niche food source in the environment comes into play. If you take any organism out of it's "natural" environment it is prone to disease. The "paleo" diet world attempts to understand this but is still lacking. Research into our genetics that give us the enzymes and metabolic pathways plus our gut bacteria assisting in the break down of foods is vital to proper nutrition.

As you have most likely heard the case, some human races such as Northern Europeans have more of the ability to digest lactose and dairy products into old age. Then another related example is you have primates being one of the only mammals that doesn't have the pathway to manufacture their own vitamin C. Getting down to the real specifics and personalized diet of someone based on their lifetime environmental exposure history, the microbiome and immune system they inherited prenatal, their genetics, and their ancestry, I believe can really optimize their health and that is one of the most exciting areas of research to me which evidence supports could greatly reduce the healthcare problem in the world.

-----

I don't know if you caught the part but Tom O'Bryan has contributed to coming up with a digestive enzyme that people can take before they consume a meal that has any chance of having wheat in it for those who really can't tolerate the proteins. Don't get me wrong, I am not an advocate for pills and man made foods or enzymes. That's just a band-aid to the root problem but it helps us in our health and understanding in the mean time.

An example of this kind of stupid thinking is that in recent news, other ignorant researchers have come up with enzymes that you now take in order to digest the wheat and GMO gains. This is being touted as a wonderful miracle for people with celiac disease. So basically people are happy that a company that most likely produced a food to give them the autoimmune response is now able to help manage that disease. This is likely to be another profitable pathway for companies that patent foods. They can now patent GMOs, patent the pesticides to grow them, and then patent the enzymes you need to consume the foods. That in itself might not be that bad if it were not for slowly taking over being incorporated into nearly the entire global food supply (staple food) giving people no choice.

While this might contribute to human understanding, I disagree with this being put into practice on society that has no choice but to be a guinea pig, manipulated, and significant profit and power are involved. It only answers a tiny part of the puzzle for nutrition and preventing disease that shouldn't have been there in the first place.
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