Who's supporting Trump?

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Who's supporting Trump?

Postby Natural ChemE on March 17th, 2016, 3:54 pm 

The 2016 US Presidential Election is currently in primaries (analysis at FiveThirtyEight).

The front-runner for the Republican nomination is Donald Trump. Previously, Trump considered running in the 2012 Election, though he announced that he wasn't ready to run at that time. Wikipedia summarizes Trump's political positions.

Back when Trump announced his 2016 bid, some commentators dismissed him as a joke.
A Note About Our Coverage Of Donald Trump’s ‘Campaign’, The Huffington Post wrote:After watching and listening to Donald Trump since he announced his candidacy for president, we have decided we won’t report on Trump’s campaign as part of The Huffington Post’s political coverage. Instead, we will cover his campaign as part of our Entertainment section. Our reason is simple: Trump’s campaign is a sideshow. We won’t take the bait. If you are interested in what The Donald has to say, you’ll find it next to our stories on the Kardashians and The Bachelorette.

Given these expectations, how has Trump faired so well? And who's supporting him?

Useful sources:For me, the main new point was that Trump's supporters tend to be those who feel powerless. On average, they're relatively uneducated, poor, and Left of where you'd expect Republican voters to be. They feel powerless,
    Image
and feel discriminated against, especially in economic terms:
    Image.

Personally I was surprised that Trump's campaign has done so well, so I looked this stuff up to try to make sense of it. While this casual review isn't complete, it makes some sense to me that there's a large segment of poor white voters who feel abused by both the Republican and Democratic establishments.

Whatever happens in this election, I wonder where that voter base will go in the future? There're tons of poor, uneducated white people who feel powerless, but I'm not sure what either the Republican party or Democratic party offers them.
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Re: Who's supporting Trump?

Postby Natural ChemE on March 17th, 2016, 4:26 pm 

Tangential -

Socialism seems to be doing well this time around; Sanders is second in the Democratic primaries despite describing himself as a socialist. Nationalism is also doing well; Trump leads the Republican primaries. While there's no major candidate who's a National Socialist (Nazi), it's strange to consider the possibility that Nazi rhetoric might be becoming viable.

In recognition of Godwin's law, Trump's far too capitalist to ever be a Hitler; politicians need to be pro-government-expansion to eventually become a dictator. Also, Sanders isn't anywhere near Nationalist enough to fill that role.
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Re: Who's supporting Trump?

Postby SciameriKen on March 17th, 2016, 5:24 pm 

I think your analysis is not taking into account the anti-establishment attitude of the voter base. Particularly the republican voters, for whom Fox news and right wing radio has been telling them for years that they cannot trust the administration, and now Trump seizes on this distrust to extend it to, you also can't trust the republican establishment.

Additionally, the thought of stopping business as usual is also heavily driving the Sanders campaign, which includes a lot of independent voters who are willing to deal with socialist agenda of Sanders just to have a guy in office that isn't controlled by corporate interest. I suspect Trump, who is just saying what he needs to in order to win (which is also what Hillary is doing) will mop up these types of voters once he starts talking more like a centrist in the main election, and ultimately win over Hillary. Quite the interesting year...
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Re: Who's supporting Trump?

Postby ronjanec on March 17th, 2016, 5:26 pm 

I support Trump NCE. Trump 2016
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Re: Who's supporting Trump?

Postby Lomax on March 17th, 2016, 8:33 pm 

Natural ChemE » March 17th, 2016, 9:26 pm wrote:In recognition of Godwin's law, Trump's far too capitalist to ever be a Hitler; politicians need to be pro-government-expansion to eventually become a dictator. Also, Sanders isn't anywhere near Nationalist enough to fill that role.

There's no evidence that Hitler was particularly socialist. I don't suggest that Trump is the new Hitler, but I think the economic positions of both men are generally considered less salient than their nationalism, racism and authoritarianism.
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Re: Who's supporting Trump?

Postby Serpent on March 17th, 2016, 9:36 pm 

Natural ChemE » March 17th, 2016, 3:26 pm wrote:Tangential -

In recognition of Godwin's law, Trump's far too capitalist to ever be a Hitler; politicians need to be pro-government-expansion to eventually become a dictator. Also, Sanders isn't anywhere near Nationalist enough to fill that role.

Hitler was in bed with Joe Kennedy, as well as the Vatican bank - and socialists were high on his hit-list.
But that's really the least worrisome comparison. Pronouncements like: "Endorse me or I'll have my thugs beat you up." and "We should torture them and kill their families." are rather more so.
It's not the economics; it's the attitude and methods.
(ETA plus the yelling and the grimaces. Crowds get an adrenalin-high from uncontrolled RAGE. Any scapegoat will do.)

As for pro- or anti- government expansion - Humbug! All Republicans attack government, denigrate and misrepresent what government does, promise to reduce its power, put it on a 'business' footing, balance the budget, etc. Once in power, they increase the military budget, let in more lobbyists, award fatter-the-ever contracts, appoint their financial supporters to lucrative sinecures, add another spy agency or six. They always campaign on platforms of the citizens' liberty; always make more private activities illegal and expand the government's power over citizen's rights.

Trump's supporters don't know that he's rich because they're poor; that they're deep in debt to finance his tax-exemptions. They don't know, because they've been thoroughly saturated by 30 years of extreme Republican rhetoric.

The party created the monster that is about it tear it down.

(Windows 10 stole my editor tool.)
Last edited by Serpent on March 17th, 2016, 9:49 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Who's supporting Trump?

Postby ronjanec on March 17th, 2016, 9:36 pm 

Nuneaton? Lomax, I thought you moved to Australia? Did the Aussies kick you out and make you go back to the Uk? :)
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Re: Who's supporting Trump?

Postby Natural ChemE on March 17th, 2016, 9:50 pm 

Lomax,

I agree that Nationalism is a common thread between Trump and Hitler, leading me to bring up the comparison in the first place. That said, Hitler's political course was fundamentally tied to his Socialist agenda; it's hard to see him having become a dictator without the authority he gained through advocating and instituting Socialist policies.

It's tangential (new thread, maybe?), but everything I can find seems to suggest that Hitler was pretty hardcore Socialist, both in word and deed. He's literally the guy who put "Socialist" into the Nazi party's name (National Socialist German Workers' Party), and he implemented tons of Socialist policies through his 25-point "National Socialist Programme" plan.

So that noted, why would you say that Hitler wasn't particularly Socialist?

PS - Just to avoid any confusion, I agree that Hitler's Socialism wasn't the same as Marx's. He really hated Marx, associating Marxism with Jewish conspiracy.
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Re: Who's supporting Trump?

Postby zetreque on March 17th, 2016, 9:54 pm 

I am 88% Sanders according to this website. Perhaps everyone should fill out a survey like the one on this website before they are allowed to vote? Though the website could expand and explain the issues better.
http://www.isidewith.com/

Bernie isn't perfect, but I consider every other person running to just be a Capitalist Republican whether they call themselves by another party or not and I am disgusted with all of them. I am not happy with where this country is headed. It's as if we are living 100 years ago.

PS: oh and also according to that website I side 30% with Trump.
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Re: Who's supporting Trump?

Postby Lomax on March 17th, 2016, 11:27 pm 

Natural ChemE » March 18th, 2016, 2:50 am wrote:So that noted, why would you say that Hitler wasn't particularly Socialist?

I find it's better to define a leader's political positions in terms of what they actually enact, rather than their propaganda*. That is, most of the historical accounts I've read agree that the term "national socialism" was an effort to get socialists on board once the left-wing parties were banned (rather than to name one's own party with descriptive exactness). This is not deny that there were socialists within the party, but Hitler was not one of them. I don't know of much evidence that Hitler's actual enactments were particularly socialist - many cite his formation of trade unions, for instance, but he did so only to replace the less docile trade unions which he had disbanded. Note that industry was radically privatised, as were the banks and the railroads, under the third reich. (By the way, I strongly recommend that anybody reading this Googles the etymology of the word "privatisation".) Slave labour was utilised, top tax rates were low even by the standards of the age, and the German stock market boomed.

__________

* Otherwise, we might cite quotations like the following: "The government will not protect the economic interests of the German people by the circuitous method of an economic bureaucracy to be organized by the state, but by the utmost furtherance of private initiative and by the recognition of the rights of property."
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Re: Who's supporting Trump?

Postby Serpent on March 17th, 2016, 11:40 pm 

Each industry is best equipped to regulate itself, and the people who are most competent to deploy that good self-regulating equipment are CEO's. Obviously.

Never mind the words they corrupt.
Who is more likely to be lying?
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Re: Who's supporting Trump?

Postby Natural ChemE on March 18th, 2016, 12:33 am 

Lomax,

Hitler advocated market socialism, which he pretty heavily forced on Germany after the Enabling Act of 1933 made him a dictator.

The type of privatization that your reference discusses is consistent with this, isn't it?

Also, to knitpick, I felt that your characterization of the article may've been a tad off. It sounds like the article discusses how Germany reprivatized some firms that it had already nationalized, often retaining a stake and implementing strict regulatory controls.
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Re: Who's supporting Trump?

Postby Lomax on March 18th, 2016, 12:48 am 

Natural ChemE » March 18th, 2016, 5:33 am wrote:Lomax,

Hitler advocated market socialism, which he pretty heavily forced on Germany after the Enabling Act of 1933 made him a dictator.

The type of privatization that your reference discusses is consistent with this, isn't it?

I would ask the question within the context of your earlier claim - in other words, is the radical privatisation of industry and commerce, with some remaining state control over these things, a step towards or away from socialism? Is it an example of the government expanding into the economic sphere? It seems otherwise to me. To claim that Hitler was any kind of socialist I think one needs to provide sufficient evidence that he took steps toward edifying the poor, reducing the wealth gap, and bringing the means of production into public control (by the way: in what sense is an autocratic government "public"? I would sooner say that Germany was the private property of Hitler.)
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Re: Who's supporting Trump?

Postby Serpent on March 18th, 2016, 10:29 am 

What is the philosophy behind socialism?
Is that the only word we need to describe an entire political agenda? Does that word describe every act of every national leader - democratically elected, mob-swept or military coup'd into power - who called himself a socialist?

I do believe Trump supporters are conditioned to reflexively reach for their firearms whenever they hear the words 'socialist', 'feminist', 'intellectual' 'democrat', 'tolerant' or 'liberal' - and probably most ethnic and some religious designations, however inaccurate.
I don't believe Trump's supporters know what his political agenda is. I very much doubt he has one. He makes grandiose claims, tells a great many lies, proposes ridiculous actions that his supporters can't possibly carry out; he's certainly never going to take up a gun and march into Syria, or anywhere it's not safe.
Nobody asks him the particulars - because they simply don't care.

He's throwing a giant temper-tantrum in their name, and they're happy to join in. He can stop any time - has done before. But once a mob is well and truly riled up, they won't calm down on command. Whether he wins or loses, there will be blood in a lot of streets. Not Trump's. Bummer!
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Re: Who's supporting Trump?

Postby wolfhnd on March 18th, 2016, 11:15 am 

Serpent » Fri Mar 18, 2016 2:29 pm wrote:What is the philosophy behind socialism?


That is the question isn't it because not all liberals are socialists.

On the other hand all States have elements of socialism. It is nice to have clear definitions when discussing something as long as you remember that the "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy". The problem is ego.

Here are a few quotes addressing Abraham Lincoln published or written in the North.

"The illustrious Honest Old Abe has continued during the last week to make a fool of himself and to mortify and shame the intelligent people of this great nation. His speeches have demonstrated the fact that although originally a Herculean rail splitter and more lately a whimsical story teller and side splitter, he is no more capable of becoming a statesman, nay, even a moderate one, than the braying ass can become a noble lion."

Salem Advocate 1861

"He is evidently a person of very inferior cast of character, wholly unequal to the crisis."

Edward Everett 1861

"His speeches have fallen like a wet blanket here. They put to flight all notions of greatness."

Congressman Charles Francis Adams 1861

I could go on but you get the idea. I'm not saying Trump is Lincoln but we have a tradition of electing people who are not political scientists. Trump is certainly unpolished but he has an IQ of 156 and dyslexia which should be taken into account when you listen to him. One of the things that gets in the way of the "educated" when considering candidates is how much are they like me. More importantly is how difficult it is to admit that sending the same type of politician back to Washington to enact the same failed policies is the definition of stupid.

The recent attacks on Sam Harris should give every rational liberal pause to consider if they will be next. Not all "liberals" are good people.

Take a look at the following video because I think it illustrates how Trump is no more likely to put blood in the streets than continuing on our current course. In the video two Arab liberals discuss how the west is getting it wrong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpXzT9ccgc0
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Re: Who's supporting Trump?

Postby TheVat on March 18th, 2016, 11:52 am 

Aside from the Godwin's Law mandated meander, I mostly like the essential breakdown of Trumpies in the OP.

"For me, the main new point was that Trump's supporters tend to be those who feel powerless. On average, they're relatively uneducated, poor, and Left of where you'd expect Republican voters to be..." - NatChem

I don't even know if "Left" quite describes where these people are. They feel like they aren't getting much of a slice of the American pie, and they want to cast a protest vote to express their disgruntlement at elected officials who don't appear to care about their interests. Basically, anyone who comes along and says that he knows how to create lots of jobs and that he's an Outsider, and knows how to focus their fears and hatreds (immigrants, Muslims, aggressive women....) will soon have them infatuated. Cruz tried to do that, on the Evangelical side, but the people who feel that America is becoming godless and heathen are outnumbered by those who feel our economy is circling the drain. If you're going to be a demagogue, there's nothing like the economy issue, because everybody worries about money in this country (even, apparently, people who have loads and loads of it, and crap their drawers at the thought of giving even a tiny pittance to help pay for college education). You don't even have to have any political experience, just push the right buttons of fear and anxiety.
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Re: Who's supporting Trump?

Postby Serpent on March 18th, 2016, 12:45 pm 

Fear and loathing.

Oh, the fun Hunter Thompson could have now!

I don't think dyslexia wholly explains "I'll pay you to beat up protesters." But I've never been a huge fan of Lincoln, so that analogy is all right. Civil war is a distinct possibility - not even a new one, just a sequel to ACW I - the rematch. This time, the union may disintegrate, which is probably what should have happened the first time.
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Re: Who's supporting Trump?

Postby wolfhnd on March 18th, 2016, 1:15 pm 

Serpent » Fri Mar 18, 2016 4:45 pm wrote:Fear and loathing.

Oh, the fun Hunter Thompson could have now!

I don't think dyslexia wholly explains "I'll pay you to beat up protesters." But I've never been a huge fan of Lincoln, so that analogy is all right. Civil war is a distinct possibility - not even a new one, just a sequel to ACW I - the rematch. This time, the union may disintegrate, which is probably what should have happened the first time.


You know the old saying "never discuss politics or religion in polite society"
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Re: Who's supporting Trump?

Postby ronjanec on March 18th, 2016, 1:51 pm 

Why do many people support Donald Trump?

1). Many people hate the news media, and Trump is the first political candidate who has been able to stand up to them and actually put them on the defensive.

2). Many of his supporters have believed for years that the Republican Party is losing the battle against the Democrats, and he is the only one that can now beat them in a presidential election.

3). Many of his supporters believe the country is heading for economic collapse, and want a successful businessman in charge of the government to try to turn things around, or at least delay the inevitable.

4). Many of his supporters believe Trump will be a strong leader like Putin, and will be able to stand up to those who try to do our nation harm.

5). Many of his supporters believe Trump will at least try to bring manufacturing jobs back to our country.

6). Many of his supporters believe Trump will support our military people, our unions, and our police departments, and they have absolutely no use for people like the BLM extremists to put it mildly.

7). Many of his supporters believe Trump will at least try to do something about illegal immigration from the south, and they are also very concerned about Islamic immigration here in the US because of what is happening in Europe, and the many horror stories from over there.

How do I know this? I read articles about Trump from both the liberal MSM and the conservative media here in the US, and also the comments from the average person about the same articles.

(There are a number of other reasons that I may post when I have more time).
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Re: Who's supporting Trump?

Postby TheVat on March 18th, 2016, 2:28 pm 

Given that Trump offshored jobs (or hauled in foreign workers) in his own business ventures, why would anyone believe your #5?
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Re: Who's supporting Trump?

Postby TheVat on March 18th, 2016, 2:33 pm 

Serpent » March 18th, 2016, 9:45 am wrote:Fear and loathing.

Oh, the fun Hunter Thompson could have now!


Hunter would be happier than a hog wallowing in warm mud. Out on the edge of the desert, the drugs starting to take effect....
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Re: Who's supporting Trump?

Postby zetreque on March 18th, 2016, 3:28 pm 

Braininvat » Fri Mar 18, 2016 11:28 am wrote:Given that Trump offshored jobs (or hauled in foreign workers) in his own business ventures, why would anyone believe your #5?


Sounds like disaster. A police state that is going to rape the countries resources for jobs and profits that will just end up in the hands of the rich and once those jobs and resources are gone we are in an even worse state than before with a lot more foreign enemies. But that's ok, Trump can always fist fight them. That's even if it's all the truth. It is the capitalists job to maximize profit which is why corporations go over seas for cheaper labor and people lie about job creation benefiting humanity. Create slaves and pollution outside of the country so that we can blindly squander resources within.

Sounds like Halliburton at more of an extreme.
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Re: Who's supporting Trump?

Postby Serpent on March 18th, 2016, 3:51 pm 

Here is an article http://www.bbc.com/news/business-35828747 discussing some of the probable consequences. Not flat-out optimistic.

I wonder how many Republicans today are wishing they hadn't tampered with all those voting machines and gerrymandered all those districts.
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Re: Who's supporting Trump?

Postby ronjanec on March 18th, 2016, 4:09 pm 

Braininvat » Fri Mar 18, 2016 12:28 pm wrote:Given that Trump offshored jobs (or hauled in foreign workers) in his own business ventures, why would anyone believe your #5?


A "good" businessman just taking advantage for his personal business of what many other "good" businessman liberal and conservative nationwide were doing at the same time because the laws allowed this?
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Re: Who's supporting Trump?n

Postby ronjanec on March 18th, 2016, 4:27 pm 

Serpent » Fri Mar 18, 2016 1:51 pm wrote:Here is an article http://www.bbc.com/news/business-35828747 discussing some of the probable consequences. Not flat-out optimistic.

I wonder how many Republicans today are wishing they hadn't tampered with all those voting machines and gerrymandered all those districts.


It's really hard to find a more biased to the left "news" organization than the BBC Serpent! You really should check out Breitbart UK to actually see the other side of the story there, and hopefully avoid the complete liberal brainwashing you are getting from the BBC and many other UK publications like "the Guardian".
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Re: Who's supporting Trump?

Postby zetreque on March 18th, 2016, 5:18 pm 

The BBC is only reporting the EIU, so it's not really the BBC that is what you should be looking at. Neither of which is American.
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Re: Who's supporting Trump?

Postby Serpent on March 18th, 2016, 5:49 pm 

I never claimed to be opinion-free.
I have biases against dictatorship, racism, homophobia, misogyny, xenophobia, slavery, imperialism, the KKK, torture, oppression, unsustainable economies, extinctions, catastrophically ill-considered foreign policy and ignorant mobs with torches and pitchforks. I'm old and crotchety.

I only claim to form my opinions freely.
None of those biases were formed by the BBC. Many were developed in the few decades when America was a lot more civil, tolerant and viable than it is now.
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Re: Who's supporting Trump?n

Postby Eclogite on March 18th, 2016, 6:08 pm 

ronjanec » Fri Mar 18, 2016 8:27 pm wrote:It's really hard to find a more biased to the left "news" organization than the BBC Serpent! You really should check out Breitbart UK to actually see the other side of the story there, and hopefully avoid the complete liberal brainwashing you are getting from the BBC and many other UK publications like "the Guardian".
Of course, speaking as a tree hugging, hippy loving, liberal thinking, pro-socialist, your comments about the BBC strike me as ill informed prejudice. While no news organisation is perfect, I'll generally take the BBC's version of events in preference to any other news organisation. Not because they fit my worldview, but because in the majority of instances their stance is borne out by events.
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Re: Who's supporting Trump?

Postby ronjanec on March 18th, 2016, 9:32 pm 

zetreque » Fri Mar 18, 2016 3:18 pm wrote:The BBC is only reporting the EIU, so it's not really the BBC that is what you should be looking at. Neither of which is American.


Who would you recommend for overseas news (in English) that is not an American news source?(What is the EIU?)
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Re: Who's supporting Trump?

Postby ronjanec on March 18th, 2016, 9:55 pm 

Serpent » Fri Mar 18, 2016 3:49 pm wrote:I never claimed to be opinion-free.
I have biases against dictatorship, racism, homophobia, misogyny, xenophobia, slavery, imperialism, the KKK, torture, oppression, unsustainable economies, extinctions, catastrophically ill-considered foreign policy and ignorant mobs with torches and pitchforks. I'm old and crotchety.

I only claim to form my opinions freely.
None of those biases were formed by the BBC. Many were developed in the few decades when America was a lot more civil, tolerant and viable than it is now.


It is very difficult for ordinary people like ourselves to form our opinions freely, when we have people on both sides of the political spectrum trying very hard to force their personal opinions and ideologies on us through many different outlets: Many times using very deceptive and even nefarious methods to accomplish this same purpose.
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