![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
Serpent » Sat Nov 14, 2015 3:27 pm wrote:How do massive social movements, revolution and civil wars factor into the "hive" mentality of humans?
Or, for that matter the disaffection and ill-treatment of minorities, or the incidence of clinical depression, or crime and [extreme] punishment?
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
Serpent » Sun Nov 15, 2015 4:45 am wrote:Thanks; I get the analogy.
But I suspect it's more of a metaphor than an actual description. Sounds good, has some recognizable features, as long as you don't prod too hard.
For example, the hive identity evolved to be good for the long-term survival of bees. That doesn't mean immunity to infection - or to any other organism that evolves alongside and uses it as an ecological niche. Bees didn't foresee a species that could exploit them? Well, of course they couldn't have, and they couldn't have, even if each individual bee were as autonomous and intelligent as a dolphin, 'cose they didn't see us coming, either. Heck, we didn't even see us coming!
If human societies had a collective consciousness, they would function more reliably than they do. The stresses that you describe tearing apart an individual human's identity are mostly, if not entirely, caused by dysfunctional societies. That shouldn't be able to happen. It wouldn't happen in an ant colony.
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
Serpent » Sun Nov 15, 2015 5:00 pm wrote: It also belongs to the hive, but is not part of the hive as cells are part of the bee: there is no central control, except that of instinct. All the bees have to co-ordinate their efforts through overt, external communication, which is not foolproof. They have very limited functions and thinking capability, and even so, can go wrong, get lost, fail in their task.
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
wolfhnd » November 16th, 2015, 3:59 am wrote:[
Well that is the point isn't it in so far as the analogy goes cells also have very limited functions, thinking capability and often go wrong, get lost and fail in their task. Those cells are then eliminated perhaps more efficiently than arrant bees but the arrant or anti social bee and human are also eliminated fairly rapidly in many cases.
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
Braininvat » Mon Nov 16, 2015 4:51 pm wrote:Anyone who think a group or societal mind is a good thing should spend time in the Middle East.
Or Jonestown, in the 70's. Drink the koolaid. Yum.
Serpent » Mon Nov 16, 2015 3:40 pm wrote:wolfhnd » November 16th, 2015, 3:59 am wrote:[
Well that is the point isn't it in so far as the analogy goes cells also have very limited functions, thinking capability and often go wrong, get lost and fail in their task. Those cells are then eliminated perhaps more efficiently than arrant bees but the arrant or anti social bee and human are also eliminated fairly rapidly in many cases.
The bee gets eliminated, yes, because her society is cohesive and has simple operating principles; there is no room for anomalous behaviour. Human societies thrive on non-standard behaviour, like invention, creativity, skepticism and self-esteem.
The most outrageous rogue human isn't eliminated - he gets to be emperor, with the power to eliminate thousands or millions of properly-functioning units.
That's the crux of my objection.
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
Serpent » Mon Nov 16, 2015 9:55 pm wrote:Next, you'll be saying memes are real.
Okay, I see a thesis of which I don't begin to know enough background information or development to argue properly. So I'll back down, with just one feeble parting shot.
I get it that society doesn't exist for the benefit of the individual, but I can't see how the frequent malfunctions which cost thousands and millions of productive individual benefit the collective. If societies keep self-destructing from collective craziness (or the craziness of an anomalous clique in power), why hasn't a corrective mechanism evolved to counteract this tendency?
Language is full of bugs and pitfalls. I'm holding out for telepathy.
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
Serpent » Tue Nov 17, 2015 5:12 am wrote:It's with the malfunction of human societies. They're non-adaptive. They're badly regulated, wasteful, sick and crazy. They don't work! That makes me think they're not organisms at all, let alone conscious ones.
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
wolfhnd » November 17th, 2015, 12:23 am wrote:Serpent » Tue Nov 17, 2015 5:12 am wrote:It's with the malfunction of human societies. They're non-adaptive. They're badly regulated, wasteful, sick and crazy. They don't work! That makes me think they're not organisms at all, let alone conscious ones.
They haven't had much time to evolve and adapt to humans ;-).
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
Braininvat » Tue Nov 17, 2015 5:24 pm wrote:Given that subjectivity and qualia go hand in hand, I have no idea what would give a society those things. That was part of the point I was trying to make. When we get to the point where France sees a dog stealing someone's Christmas ham, and craves a glass of grenadine at 11:42 AM, and feels an itchy spot on its rear two minutes later, then I guess a society will have achieved all that. Until then, as far I can tell, society is just an idea we each develop inside our heads in an effort to get along with other people.
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests