I need help making a stable solution.

Discussions on general chemistry and chemical engineering, organic chemistry, analytical chemistry, etc.

I am not a chemist. Get that out in the open up front! I take care of horses. I recently found out that a 2.5% solution of hydronium works wonders for healing cuts and "rain rot" and a multitude of other things that horses get. I've been searching the net trying to figure out how to make it and I understand that you simply add an acid such as vinegar or NaOH to water and you will get hydronium. What I can't figure out is how much of either do I add to how much water to get a 2.5% stable solution? Any help would be appreciated. I work with rescued horses so don't have the budget to buy the stuff at $20 for 32 oz. I have tried it and it really does work amazingly well. I imagine it would work on any animal, not just horses. Casper Forum Neophyte Posts: 12 Joined: 04 Sep 2013 Re: I need help making a stable solution. Casper, Welcome to the forums! A hydronium solution would pretty much just be a powerful acid. You start with water, then add powerful (“strong”) acid until the hydronium concentration reaches the 2.5% mark. EDIT: The definition for pH below is wrong. Don't currently have time to fix it. Chemistry-wise, you can probably just estimate hydronium concentration using pH, $\text{p}H{\equiv}-{\text{log}}_{10}{\left(\frac{1}{{{{\gamma}_{{\text{H}}^{+}}}}\left[{\text{H}^{+}}\right]}\right)}{\approx}-{\text{log}}_{10}{\left(\frac{1}{\left[{\text{H}^{+}}\right]}\right)}$, where • $\left[{\text{H}^{+}}\right]$ is the concentration of H+; • ${{{\gamma}_{{\text{H}}^{+}}}}$ is the activity coefficient of H+ (which we can ignore for now). Then we can estimate $\left[{\text{H}^{+}}\right]$ using $\frac{\left[{\text{H}}^{+}\right]}{\left[{\text{H}}_{2}{\text{O}}\right]}=0.025{\approx}\frac{\left[{\text{H}}^{+}\right]}{{\left[{\text{H}}_{2}{\text{O}}\right]}_{0}-{\left[{\text{H}}^{+}\right]}}$ where • $\left[{\text{H}}_{2}{\text{O}}\right]}_{0}{\approx}55.5\frac{\text{mol}}{\text{L}}$, then we can estimate $\left[{\text{H}}^{+}\right]{\approx}1.353658537\frac{\text{mol}}{\text{L}}$, so $\text{p}H{\approx}-{\text{log}}_{10}{\left(\frac{1}{\left[{\text{H}^{+}}\right]}\right)}{\approx}-{\text{log}}_{10}{\left(\frac{1}{1.353658537}\right)=0.131509127$. So, long story short, you’ll need to start with water, then get it down to a pH of about $0.13$. If you had to prepare such a solution for biological use, then hydrochloric acid might be a good choice since its elements are already common in animals (hydrogen’s in just about everything, chloride’s in table salt, NaCl). This said, you’d want the opinion of someone used to working with biological organisms because I’m not. Then you could check a pH chart for hydrochloric acid, which would suggest a concentration of less than 10 mass% (so, by weight, 9 parts water, then some fraction of a part of pure HCl). Or you could just buy aqueous HCl with that concentration. This would be a solution of approximately 2.5% hydronium. If you used this solution, the hydronium could quickly react, raising the pH (reducing acidity) until it becomes more like normal water (or, probably, slightly acidic salt water). It’s common practice to instead create a buffered solution which resists changes to pH – i.e., if something reacts with some of the hydronium, the solution’s other chemical species react to produce more hydronium to maintain the pH. A buffered solution with a pH that low would be a specialty item. If you check Sigma-Aldrich’s list of buffer solutions (they’re a major chemical supplier), it appears that the lowest pH which they offer is 1.0. Noting that pH is a log-10 scale, that’s about 10 times less concentrated than what we calculated. I mostly typed this to give you an idea of the Chemistry 101 behind what you’re asking about. Again noting that I’m not a medical/biological person, I’d point out that this is pretty crazy acidic. I mean, Wikipedia lists stomach acid in the pH range of 1.5 to 3.5, which is about 23 to 2336 times more dilute than what you’re asking about. Are you absolutely positive that you want to put this stuff on a living animal? Natural ChemE Forum Moderator Posts: 2744 Joined: 28 Dec 2009 Re: I need help making a stable solution. I think what you want is hydrogen peroxide solution at 2.5% for cleaning wounds. If you can buy 70% H2O2, just add 4 ml to 100 ml water. ryan711 Member Posts: 155 Joined: 15 Aug 2013 Re: I need help making a stable solution. ryan711 wrote:I think what you want is hydrogen peroxide solution at 2.5% for cleaning wounds. If you can buy 70% H2O2, just add 4 ml to 100 ml water. Don't put 0.13 pH acid on your horse unless you want to dissolve it. A 2.5% solution of perhaps Boric acid might prove effective. Boric acid has been used historically as an eye wash, an antiseptic to treat wounds and as a vaginal douche. It is poisonous if taken internally however. You can probably get boric acid powder at your local pharmacy. Usually there are directions for preparation and use on the container. Boric acid is soluable in hot water, generally about 2.5 grams per 500 ml. Or half a teaspoon per pint. Eye wash is a more dilute solution. Hydrogen peroxide also has antiseptic properties, but they are not derived from the hydronium ion, so may not be what you are looking for. I suggest you use pharmaceutical grade boric acid and read the label carefully when preparing it. Gregorygregg1 Resident Member Posts: 2078 Joined: 16 May 2012 Location: The center of the universe Re: I need help making a stable solution. As everybody said, 2.5% hydronium solution doesn't make any sense. It's probably 2.5% of some week acid (where 2.5% refers to the weight or volume of the weak acid in 100 mls of water, not to the final concentration of H+ ions - that would be insane for the applications you mentioned). Boric acid is a possiblity, as per GGs suggestion. BioWizard Forum Administrator Posts: 12071 Joined: 24 Mar 2005 Location: United States Blog: View Blog (3) Re: I need help making a stable solution. Natural ChemE wrote:$\text{p}H{\equiv}-{\text{log}}_{10}{\left(\frac{1}{{{{\gamma}_{{\text{H}}^{+}}}}\left[{\text{H}^{+}}\right]}\right)}{\approx}-{\text{log}}_{10}{\left(\frac{1}{\left[{\text{H}^{+}}\right]}\right)}$ Ew, sorry about this one. It's $\text{p}H{\equiv}{\text{log}}_{10}{\left(\frac{1}{{{{\gamma}_{{\text{H}}^{+}}}}\left[{\text{H}^{+}}\right]}\right)}$ or $\text{p}H{\equiv}-{\text{log}}_{10}{\left({{{\gamma}_{{\text{H}}^{+}}}}\left[{\text{H}^{+}}\right]\right)}$, but writing it as $\text{p}H{\equiv}-{\text{log}}_{10}{\left(\frac{1}{{{{\gamma}_{{\text{H}}^{+}}}}\left[{\text{H}^{+}}\right]}\right)}$ was just plain wrong. Assuming that I didn't mess up anything else, the pH would be a yet-more-crazy-acidic $-0.13$. Stupid part was that this is what Excel originally said, before I was like, "Hey, that result doesn't follow from this equation!" Natural ChemE Forum Moderator Posts: 2744 Joined: 28 Dec 2009 Re: I need help making a stable solution. Gosh, thanks for all of the input. I actually bought a product called BANIXX (you can google it) and on the bottle it states the active ingredient as 2.5% Hydronium Solution (H9O4). So when I googled Hydronium I thought maybe there was a way to make it myself. LOL I deal with LOTS of horses so$20 for 32 oz goes in about 2 days and it really did work well. Maybe there's something in there they're not saying?

Casper
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Re: I need help making a stable solution.

BioWizard wrote:As everybody said, 2.5% hydronium solution doesn't make any sense. It's probably 2.5% of some week acid (where 2.5% refers to the weight or volume of the weak acid in 100 mls of water, not to the final concentration of H+ ions - that would be insane for the applications you mentioned). Boric acid is a possiblity, as per GGs suggestion.

So would using Boric Acid make a Hydronium Solution? What about Vinegar? Remember (as you laugh) I know nothing about chemistry!

Casper
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Re: I need help making a stable solution.

Nobody is going to laugh. None of us was born with this information and we all had to start somewhere.

Any chemical that dissociates in water to give H+ (proton) and a cation will produce hydronium ions. Hydronium forms when the released H+ attaches to water molecules. H9O4+ is just 4 molecules of water with an H+ loosely bound to them. The main question here is whether the 2.5% refers to the final amount of dissociated H+ (which would give you insane acidity), or the total amount of an added substance - of which a tiny fraction dissociates to give H+ (which seems to be the more likely scenario). The amount of H+ relative to the original amount of the acidic chemical depends on how strongly acidic the chemical is. HCl is a strong acid, and will dissociate in water to give you an H+ for every molecule of HCl you dissolve in. Boric acid on the other hand is a weaker acid, and a small fraction of the molecules you add to water will dissociate to give H+ and borate, and thus create a much less acidic solution. So a 2.5% solution of HCl will result in a 2.5% solution of H+ (since all HCl will dissociate to H+ and Cl-), while a 2.5% solution of Boric acid will have much less H+ than that (since only a small fraction of the Boric acid molecules will dissociate and release H+).

BioWizard

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Re: I need help making a stable solution.

BioWizard wrote:Nobody is going to laugh. None of us was born with this information and we all had to start somewhere.

Any chemical that dissociates in water to give H+ (proton) and a cation will produce hydronium ions. Hydronium forms when the released H+ attaches to water molecules. H9O4+ is just 4 molecules of water with an H+ loosely bound to them. The main question here is whether the 2.5% refers to the final amount of dissociated H+ (which would give you insane acidity), or the total amount of an added substance - of which a tiny fraction dissociates to give H+ (which seems to be the more likely scenario). The amount of H+ relative to the original amount of the acidic chemical depends on how strongly acidic the chemical is. HCl is a strong acid, and will dissociate in water to give you an H+ for every molecule of HCl you dissolve in. Boric acid on the other hand is a weaker acid, and a small fraction of the molecules you add to water will dissociate to give H+ and borate, and thus create a much less acidic solution. So a 2.5% solution of HCl will result in a 2.5% solution of H+ (since all HCl will dissociate to H+ and Cl-), while a 2.5% solution of Boric acid will have much less H+ than that (since only a small fraction of the Boric acid molecules will dissociate and release H+).

The stuff is not acidic at all. I agree that it must be the total amount added.

So..... If I've got this right, If I have a 2.5% solution of HCl then I could take 2.5 ml of that solution and add it to 100 ml of water to give me 2.5% Hydronium Ions? Now if I knew how to make a 2.5% solution of HCl...

I did much better in English than Math and Science in school!

Casper
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Re: I need help making a stable solution.

Casper,

It’d probably be easier if we could just check whatever’s online about the thing that you’re trying to recreate. Do you have the product’s name?
Natural ChemE
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I can go to Lowe's and buy a gallon of Muriatic Acid --Hydrochloric acid, 20° Baume (31.45%) -- for less than $8.00! This would work, right? I just need to figure out how much of a 31.45% solution I need to add to get a 2.5% solution. Hmmmm. Let me pull out the math books! I'll let you know if I figure it out. If I'm way off base, someone yell at me! The product's name is Banixx. Casper Forum Neophyte Posts: 12 Joined: 04 Sep 2013 Re: I need help making a stable solution. Natural ChemE "Spray that comes out of a bottle." That's a good one. I guess since they're not marketing it to humans they don't have to be too specific. I'll see if I can figure out my little math problem then see if I can get a pH on it. I have plenty of horses to try it out on if the pH is ok. With the bottle that I bought I used it on 1/2 of a horse and a home-made remedy on the other half. The Banixx worked better and faster so I was really impressed. Casper Forum Neophyte Posts: 12 Joined: 04 Sep 2013 Re: I need help making a stable solution. Casper, After reading the FAQ page, I’m a little suspicious. I mean, first, they seem to claim that it works on pretty much any animal. They list: • horses • chickens • a falcon • an iguana • alpacas • show cattle • cats • kittens • dogs • puppies • an elk • ferrets. They seem to be suggesting that it cures a huge variety of problems, performed better than a combination of other products, doesn’t irritate anything (even eyes), can’t be overdosed, you can apply without gloves, helps generate tissue, kills viruses, kills bacteria, helps relieve pain (even from fire ant bites), etc. And since humans are animals – and certainly closer to horses than, say, an iguana is – then it should be a miracle cure for humans too, right? However, despite research chemicals for a living, I can’t figure out what this stuff is, who invented it, any explanation for how or why it works, or any study on it in a scholarly journal. Then I have found several websites that claim it’s 2.5% H9O4, but even that doesn’t make sense. That should be a powerful acid that’d just dissolve animals, not something that you can just apply anywhere without gloves! When you compared it to your homemade remedy, what was your homemade remedy? Natural ChemE Forum Moderator Posts: 2744 Joined: 28 Dec 2009 Re: I need help making a stable solution. The homemade remedy is actually more caustic. Take equal parts mineral oil and antimicrobial solution (iodine or such) and add 5 tablespoons of sulfur (like you use for the garden) in a quantity to make a quart. Shake well and spread over the affected area every 3 days. It is more for rain rot which is a bacterial infection. Here is a good explanation of it. http://www.equusite.com/articles/health ... nRot.shtml I wouldn't use it on open sores as it is too caustic. Casper Forum Neophyte Posts: 12 Joined: 04 Sep 2013 Re: I need help making a stable solution. Natural ChemE wrote:Casper, After reading the FAQ page, I’m a little suspicious. I mean, first, they seem to claim that it works on pretty much any animal. They list: • horses • chickens • a falcon • an iguana • alpacas • show cattle • cats • kittens • dogs • puppies • an elk • ferrets. They seem to be suggesting that it cures a huge variety of problems, performed better than a combination of other products, doesn’t irritate anything (even eyes), can’t be overdosed, you can apply without gloves, helps generate tissue, kills viruses, kills bacteria, helps relieve pain (even from fire ant bites), etc. And since humans are animals – and certainly closer to horses than, say, an iguana is – then it should be a miracle cure for humans too, right? However, despite research chemicals for a living, I can’t figure out what this stuff is, who invented it, any explanation for how or why it works, or any study on it in a scholarly journal. Then I have found several websites that claim it’s 2.5% H9O4, but even that doesn’t make sense. That should be a powerful acid that’d just dissolve animals, not something that you can just apply anywhere without gloves! Sounds too good to be true! I don't know about all the other stuff, but it did work well with the horses that I used it on. I used it on rain rot and on open sores. Nothing deep or major like they have on some of their testimonials. I rubbed it in with my hands and it did not have any adverse effects on my skin and did not seem to bother the horses. I'm down to the last few ounces now and saving it for something "special". Too bad I can't have it analyzed! Casper Forum Neophyte Posts: 12 Joined: 04 Sep 2013 Re: I need help making a stable solution. OK, maybe I'm oversimplifying this, but I did a simple ratio because I'm a simple person and came up with adding 12.5 ml of the 31.45% Muriatic Acid to 100 ml of water. I think I'm going to check the pH of the Banixx that I have, then make my own stuff and check it's pH. If they're close I'll try it. At least it won't hurt if the pH is not acidic. If my math is wrong, let me know!!!! Casper Forum Neophyte Posts: 12 Joined: 04 Sep 2013 Re: I need help making a stable solution. Found the MSDS sheet here. http://www.horse.com/ContentFiles/Assoc ... 2-msds.pdf Says the pH is 1.55. Shouldn't that burn if sprayed on an open wound? Casper Forum Neophyte Posts: 12 Joined: 04 Sep 2013 Re: I need help making a stable solution. Casper, Testing the product’s pH would be a good first step. And I’d probably go 7.5mL before 12.5mL. Maybe I’m overestimating the danger of the low pH’s? I’ve seen concentrated HCl cause burns on contact, so I’ve figured that somewhat diluted HCl would probably still do the same. Natural ChemE Forum Moderator Posts: 2744 Joined: 28 Dec 2009 Re: I need help making a stable solution. Casper wrote:So..... If I've got this right, If I have a 2.5% solution of HCl then I could take 2.5 ml of that solution and add it to 100 ml of water to give me 2.5% Hydronium Ions? Now if I knew how to make a 2.5% solution of HCl... No, that is an incorrect conclusion. BioWizard Forum Administrator Posts: 12071 Joined: 24 Mar 2005 Location: United States Blog: View Blog (3) Re: I need help making a stable solution. Casper wrote:I can go to Lowe's and buy a gallon of Muriatic Acid --Hydrochloric acid, 20° Baume (31.45%) -- for less than$8.00! This would work, right? I just need to figure out how much of a 31.45% solution I need to add to get a 2.5% solution. Hmmmm. Let me pull out the math books! I'll let you know if I figure it out. If I'm way off base, someone yell at me!

The product's name is Banixx.

Never use the commercial muriatic acid for your horses. It contains sulfuric acid and it is toxic. Wait for more suggestions from chemistry enthusiasts.
ryan711
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Re: I need help making a stable solution.

Gregorygregg1 wrote:
ryan711 wrote:I think what you want is hydrogen peroxide solution at 2.5% for cleaning wounds. If you can buy 70% H2O2, just add 4 ml to 100 ml water.

Don't put 0.13 pH acid on your horse unless you want to dissolve it. A 2.5% solution of perhaps Boric acid might prove effective. Boric acid has been used historically as an eye wash, an antiseptic to treat wounds and as a vaginal douche. It is poisonous if taken internally however. You can probably get boric acid powder at your local pharmacy. Usually there are directions for preparation and use on the container. Boric acid is soluable in hot water, generally about 2.5 grams per 500 ml. Or half a teaspoon per pint. Eye wash is a more dilute solution. Hydrogen peroxide also has antiseptic properties, but they are not derived from the hydronium ion, so may not be what you are looking for. I suggest you use pharmaceutical grade boric acid and read the label carefully when preparing it.

Go for boric acid. This is the closest to hydronium solution, safest and have the pharmacological effect you need.
ryan711
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Re: I need help making a stable solution.

ryan711 wrote:
Gregorygregg1 wrote:
ryan711 wrote:I think what you want is hydrogen peroxide solution at 2.5% for cleaning wounds. If you can buy 70% H2O2, just add 4 ml to 100 ml water.

Don't put 0.13 pH acid on your horse unless you want to dissolve it. A 2.5% solution of perhaps Boric acid might prove effective. Boric acid has been used historically as an eye wash, an antiseptic to treat wounds and as a vaginal douche. It is poisonous if taken internally however. You can probably get boric acid powder at your local pharmacy. Usually there are directions for preparation and use on the container. Boric acid is soluable in hot water, generally about 2.5 grams per 500 ml. Or half a teaspoon per pint. Eye wash is a more dilute solution. Hydrogen peroxide also has antiseptic properties, but they are not derived from the hydronium ion, so may not be what you are looking for. I suggest you use pharmaceutical grade boric acid and read the label carefully when preparing it.

Go for boric acid. This is the closest to hydronium solution, safest and have the pharmacological effect you need.

I do like the idea of boric acid as it is a very mild acid and very safe. After a little research, it seems that it is no longer sold as "pharmaceutical grade". I did find one recipe for the use of it for pink eye at 1 teaspoon to 4 ounces of water. So..... I think I'll try that ratio and see what happens. It's easily available and "will do no harm", so the worst that can happen is nothing.

You guys have really been great! Thanks so much for all of your help. Here's some photos of Maybeline, the horse I've been working on. http://s644.photobucket.com/user/chispa ... /Maybeline
Overall, the whole process took about a month from start to finish. Also here's the website of Angel's Grove Ranch where I volunteer to take care of the rescue horses. http://www.angelsgrove.org/index.html
They can always use help, so if you know any philanthropists, send them our way! We need to re-vamp the web site, but we'll get to it sooner or later. The horses come first.

Anyway. I'll make the boric acid solution and let you know how it works. Those of you with pets may want to know!

Judy

Casper
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Re: I need help making a stable solution.

Hi Casper,
thank you for including the photo links, it was interesting to see Maybeliene, the subject of this thread, she looks well on the mend and the website looks fine, why do you need to upgrade it?

moranity
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Re: I need help making a stable solution.

moranity wrote:Hi Casper,
thank you for including the photo links, it was interesting to see Maybeliene, the subject of this thread, she looks well on the mend and the website looks fine, why do you need to upgrade it?

Hi Moranity,
Lisa has done an awesome job both with the ranch and the website. Personally I don't know how she manages to get so much done. She's just a great person! The organization, Angel's Grove Ranch, is a 501c non profit organization. With that in mind, I think having a donate link on each page would be nice. Maybe a little more detail on the expense of running an operation such as this. How much a bag of food costs, vet visits, farriers and such. I don't think she put anything on there about therapeutic riding either. That is actually how I met her. My daughter is autistic and I went to her so she could ride then just got really involved. Also, if you notice on an earlier post I said that I did much better in English than in Math or Science. So I tend to be a constant proofreader. There are a few spelling and grammatical mistakes that need fixing, but that's just me being nit-picking and no big deal!

Casper
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Re: I need help making a stable solution.

:) thanks everyone. I also found the product Banixx and found this forum while looking for a way to make it - I've seen the website for the product and it shows wonderful results... It is kinda pricey though so I wanted to make it myself.
lisacupelli

Re: I need help making a stable solution.

A long time ago when my older sister and I had a horse (egads, has it been 40 years already ?!), I vaguely recall using just diluted over the counter hydrogen peroxide or diluted iodine as a topical disinfectant for minor wounds, and nowadays I'd probably pair that with a topical hygroscopic protectant, like vasaline or Triple-A ointment, and if warranted, a temporary dressing to keep dirt and flies off when they invariably go for a soothing roll in the dust.

These days, with easy access to the internet, it should be a snap to simply go to a reputable looking veterinary site, and look up basic DIY wound care, to corroborate/update the above.

Darby
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Re: I need help making a stable solution.

I was just reading your posts on Banixx. Did anyone come up with how to make it? I am using it on my animals and even on my cats month sores but then You say boric acid was toxic.(I wonder if that if what it is make out of) Should I be spraying this in my pets mouth? It doesn't seem to hurt them but I don't want to cause them harm.
Deborahglider

Re: I need help making a stable solution.

A hydronium result is appealing much just be a powerful acid. It is the occurrence of hydronium ion relative to hydroxide that determines a solution's pH. The molecules in pure water auto-dissociate into hydronium and hydroxide ions in the following equilibrium: 2 H2O ⇌ OH− + H3O+ In water, there is an equal number of hydroxide and hydronium ions, so that it has a neutral pH of 7 at 25 °C. A pH value less than 7 indicates an acidic solution, and a pH value more than 7 indicates a basic solution.
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