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Lincoln wrote:Well, I don't much care about the European/Asian origins thing. I expect you're talking about something related to Kenniwick Man, as that's the most common buzz in the press. Genetics strongly suggests that a small fraction of Native American DNA came from Europe (and before 1492 or even 1000). This doesn't bother me much.
I'm more interested in the delicacy that seems to be applied of late to NA myths. We don't apply that level of delicacy to the dominant myths held by people of European extraction. I am quite comfortable making the claim that biblical literalists are wrong. Now, I respect their right to be wrong. I have zero respect for their decision to be wrong. And I have zero compunction against making the statement. (Yeah, I know what camp you're in and that wasn't aimed at you...it really was central to the thread.)
But why the delicacy for Native American myths? Right is right and wrong is wrong after all.....
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Lincoln wrote:The kid gloves are on within the academic community and not played out in the media. The media is far more circumspect about the more popular myths held within American culture. Imagine the reaction to a media outlet saying "Most of that Jesus thing is hogwash" or, Allah forbid, saying anything about Mohammed.
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Lincoln wrote:There was one case in which blood was taken from an Indian tribe (with their approval and consent) to study diabetes "and other medical studies that might come up." Apparently the head researcher was also interested in some mental health studies as well. Later, these same samples were used in what one might call a genealogical study, whereby the regional origins of the tribe were revealed. This genetic study also was able to describe the degree of inbreeding withing the tribe. Because (a) the Indians believed that if incest was revealed that a family member would die and (b) they believed that their people inhabited that land forever, the study was pulled, the chapter was removed from a Ph.D. thesis, and the whole thing squelched.
Given that the samples were taken with consent and further consent was given to a broad range of studies for which the samples could be used, my inclination would have been to tell the tribe "too bad."
I mean the truth is that there was a degree of inbreeding and the tribe didn't live there since the Earth was formed. Now, the tribe is not obliged to accept the findings...that's fine. But findings they were.
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Lincoln wrote:You seem more paranoid than usual. Imagine a national-level politician stating publicly that they are an atheist. They'd be embraced as much one as who declared themselves to be a pedophile.
America is essentially a center-right country. The academic community is a tiny fraction of the population. And there are both liberal and conservative lapdog media (Faux "News" anyone?), as well as paranoid web sites (Drudge report, perhaps?)
I'm still waiting for Forest for a substantive discussion on the subject, but let me get this straight....you would claim that the liberal media is OK with trashing one of the Israel-originated myths, but wouldn't consider touching....oh, I dunno...an Objiwa one? Your position seems to me to be tinged with a McCarthy-like flavor of paranoia..."the liberal media...I mean Commies...are everywhere."
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Lincoln wrote:I'm not making fun of you. And there are millions of paranoid people out there. (Given that there are over 300 million people in the US, it would be surprising if there weren't a few million paranoid people out there.)
OK...we have one vote for "the liberal media" as the cause for suppressing these studies. This seems improbable to me, but it is a clear position.
weakmagneto seems to be of the "but they were lied too" camp. This seems closer to the truth, although from my inexpert reading of tertiary sources, there appears to be no intentional deception. Consents were signed, the samples were voluntarily taken, the later tests were done in good faith (actually the later tests were so innocuous that the experimenters never considered that there might be a problem), and when a test subject objected, the results were pulled. The current status is that we know what the study concluded, but it is no longer to look at the results in a way so as to properly criticize them. For all we know, the results could have had a technical flaw. In any event, once the sensitivities were unveiled, the publication was pulled and the data suppressed.
It's just a curiosity to me that these results were pulled. (Partially because the results substantiated the essentially unquestioned origins of Asia as the genetic pool for most Native Americans. No matter what the tribe's religious beliefs, these particular ones are 100% wrong. The tribes have not been there since the beginning of time. This is as ridiculous as pulling a geology study because biblical literalists assert that the Deluge was real.)
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Lincoln: However there seems to be another and related thing that is happening. It is clear that archaeology and genetic studies prove that Native Americans didn't originate in the Americas. The predominant source is from Asia, although it appears that native populations have enough European DNA to suggest a small migration from the east.
The problem appears to be that some Native American religions insist that the tribes always lived where they do now and the archaeologists have to somehow respect this (meaning not contradict this obviously-untrue belief) out of some kind of respect.
It's just a curiosity to me that these results were pulled. (Partially because the results substantiated the essentially unquestioned origins of Asia as the genetic pool for most Native Americans. No matter what the tribe's religious beliefs, these particular ones are 100% wrong. The tribes have not been there since the beginning of time. This is as ridiculous as pulling a geology study because biblical literalists assert that the Deluge was real.
Lincoln wrote:weakmagneto seems to be of the "but they were lied too" camp. This seems closer to the truth, although from my inexpert reading of tertiary sources, there appears to be no intentional deception. Consents were signed, the samples were voluntarily taken, the later tests were done in good faith (actually the later tests were so innocuous that the experimenters never considered that there might be a problem), and when a test subject objected, the results were pulled. The current status is that we know what the study concluded, but it is no longer to look at the results in a way so as to properly criticize them. For all we know, the results could have had a technical flaw. In any event, once the sensitivities were unveiled, the publication was pulled and the data suppressed.)
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Exposure therapy a type of cognitive behavioral therapy that involves assisting trauma survivors to re-experience distressing trauma-related memories and reminders in order to facilitate habituation and successful emotional processing of the trauma memory. Most exposure therapy programs include both imaginal confrontation with the traumatic memories and real-life exposure to trauma reminders; this therapy modality is well supported by clinical evidence.
I make no value judgments on my biology, nor do I devalue things like attraction and beauty and love just because I'm aware that my genetics play a significant role (but not the only role) in my experience of these things.
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Lincoln wrote: According to what I've read...and I admit this is tertiary sources and I have no first hand knowledge of this...the scientific conclusion that mankind originated outside of the Americas was considered disrespectful to the NA religions and this was part of the source of the furor and subsequent suppression of the data.
Lincoln wrote: This does contradict the religious position of many Natives that their ancestors lived there forever.
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Lincoln wrote:Given that we (i.e. the dominant European culture) have a population of people who trash our own creation myths, why the kid gloves on the native myths? I mean, it's clear that they are wrong...as much as biblical literalists are wrong.
Lincoln wrote:Given that the samples were taken with consent and further consent was given to a broad range of studies for which the samples could be used, my inclination would have been to tell the tribe "too bad."
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