Underwater Suspension Tunnels And Climate Control

Discussions on classical and modern physics, quantum mechanics, particle physics, thermodynamics, general and special relativity, etc.

Moderator: BurtJordaan

Underwater Suspension Tunnels And Climate Control

I know what they can do for climate control and every aspect of how the planet can benefit from them just from regulation of sea surface temperatures (SSTs) and the enormous amount of electrical power they can produce from the kinetic energy in the gulf stream current. I understand how and why they work physically in the real world but I really can't figure out the math behind them. Is there a mathematical formula that can prove how and why they work? I built a test scale model (1/650) out of PVC pipe and used red food coloring to show how water is forced uphill from the kinetic energy and made videos of it on youtube.

cyclonebuster
Forum Neophyte

Posts: 6
Joined: 07 Dec 2010

Re: Underwater Suspension Tunnels And Climate Control

How do these things work? Please don't answer that F1>F2. Where does F1 come from?

If we should succeed in regulating the surface temperature, and happen to find that the rainfall in Canada is now 3 % of what it used to be, what is Plan B?
Resident Expert

Posts: 5370
Joined: 31 Dec 2008

Re: Underwater Suspension Tunnels And Climate Control

In its simple form F1>F2 but I will explain where F1 and F2 come from and try to piece it together.

If the whole tunnel structure is submerged and anchored to the sea floor and the Tunnel inlet at depth is faced into the 6mph gulf stream current opposing its flow a certain amount of pressure at the tunnel inlet will exist depending on the depth it is. That pressure at the tunnel inlet I call force 1. The Tunnel outlet near the surface also has a certain amount of pressure depending on how deep it is. This force I call force 2.

Two very important people discovered long ago what will happen at both ends of the tunnel. One was Pascal and the other Was Bernoulli. What I did was combine these principles to do work. At tunnel inlet at depth Force 1 exists as the gulf stream flow impinges against the mouth of the tunnel inlet. That force is transferred to the inside walls of the tunnel and the pressure decreases with altitude. Pascal discovered the theory of hydraulics where if you apply a force to a cylinder that force is transferred everywhere within that cylinder including the walls of the cylinder. So tunnel inlet where force 1 exist I credit Pascal.
Now for the other end of the submerged tunnel near the surface where force two exists at the outlet. As the 6mph gulf stream flows past the tunnel exit a more negative pressure is created like on a airplanes wing where lift is created as the air flows over the wing or like in perfume bottle when you squeeze the bulb creating a more negative pressure in the mixing chamber drawing the fluid upwards. I credit this application to Bernoulli.

So if you combine both forces Pascal at the opening at depth and Bernoulli at the opening near the surface you can see there is a pressure differential set up across the whole tunnel structure throughout its height. Pascal states where ever there is a differential of pressure flow will occur. Hopefully, I explained it good.
cyclonebuster
Forum Neophyte

Posts: 6
Joined: 07 Dec 2010

Re: Underwater Suspension Tunnels And Climate Control

I really do not understand what is the point.
(sorry I didn't look at the video)

The fact that there is a stream implies that at equal depth there is a $\Delta P$ between point $1$ and point $2$.

Thus, transferring water from point $1$ to point $2$ releases energy which you can use to make work in many many ways (the simplest one might be a screw/propeller).

As for moving water from depth(1) to depth(2) in water there is no need for Pascal or Bernoulli, as Archimede is sufficient to tell you that you have done no work.

Still, in your videos there might be some unexpected surprise I cannot dream of...
I'd appreciate your pointing that out without videos

neuro
Forum Moderator

Posts: 1716
Joined: 25 Jun 2010
Location: italy

Re: Underwater Suspension Tunnels And Climate Control

neuro wrote:I really do not understand what is the point.
(sorry I didn't look at the video)

The fact that there is a stream implies that at equal depth there is a $\Delta P$ between point $1$ and point $2$.

Thus, transferring water from point $1$ to point $2$ releases energy which you can use to make work in many many ways (the simplest one might be a screw/propeller).

As for moving water from depth(1) to depth(2) in water there is no need for Pascal or Bernoulli, as Archimede is sufficient to tell you that you have done no work.

Still, in your videos there might be some unexpected surprise I cannot dream of...
I'd appreciate your pointing that out without videos

Can you spare 2 mins. and 36 sec. of your time to watch both of the videos? All totaled up the complete set of tunnels can produce 13 trillion joules of electrical power every 7 seconds.
cyclonebuster
Forum Neophyte

Posts: 6
Joined: 07 Dec 2010

Re: Underwater Suspension Tunnels And Climate Control

Two terawatts of energy is a helluva lot of energy. Patent it! (Or look more deeply into it to see why this form of energy hasn't yet been exploited. Given the mercenary mindset of companies, this must be more expensive than current energy methods.

Lincoln
Resident Expert

Posts: 10893
Joined: 29 Dec 2005
Location: Deep in a lab...

Re: Underwater Suspension Tunnels And Climate Control

Lincoln wrote:Two terawatts of energy is a helluva lot of energy. Patent it! (Or look more deeply into it to see why this form of energy hasn't yet been exploited. Given the mercenary mindset of companies, this must be more expensive than current energy methods.

I also think it would work well with Ocean Thermal Energy Conversion ( OTEC ) systems as a combined technology energy source.

See OTEC:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_ther ... conversion
cyclonebuster
Forum Neophyte

Posts: 6
Joined: 07 Dec 2010

Re: Underwater Suspension Tunnels And Climate Control

Clearly this works. I've seen it done with air. If you assume a reasonable efficiency, you should be able to get 8 or 9 cm of lift, assuming you don't try to do any work with that. Or, you could leave it at the same depth and get some work; enough area and there's almost no limit on the work - you could probably get up to several kJ in principle.
Resident Expert

Posts: 5370
Joined: 31 Dec 2008

Re: Underwater Suspension Tunnels And Climate Control

What if the tunnel inlet opening is 40,000 square feet and the tunnel exit is the same? What would be the velocity of the current increase to inside the tunnel if we installed a 10,000 square foot reduction venturi section near the exit? How many Joules of kinetic energy could we tap from the 6mph current that would increase in the venturi section?
cyclonebuster
Forum Neophyte

Posts: 6
Joined: 07 Dec 2010

Re: Underwater Suspension Tunnels And Climate Control

The amount of kinetic energy doesn't change with the decrease in the tube. The velocity increases by a factor of four due to the area reduction.

The answer to the question comes from figuring out how you capture the energy. You would need to work out how to have a 100 x 100 foot wall of turbines, figure out how many of them, how fast they turn, etc. Assume for the moment that you have 100% efficiency for conversion of rotation to electrical power. (I say that not because 100% is reasonable, but because I don't know the right number and it's an upper bound.)

Lincoln
Resident Expert

Posts: 10893
Joined: 29 Dec 2005
Location: Deep in a lab...

Re: Underwater Suspension Tunnels And Climate Control

Lincoln wrote:The amount of kinetic energy doesn't change with the decrease in the tube. The velocity increases by a factor of four due to the area reduction.

The answer to the question comes from figuring out how you capture the energy. You would need to work out how to have a 100 x 100 foot wall of turbines, figure out how many of them, how fast they turn, etc. Assume for the moment that you have 100% efficiency for conversion of rotation to electrical power. (I say that not because 100% is reasonable, but because I don't know the right number and it's an upper bound.)

I am thinking of making the narrow section of the tunnel 110 feet long with a 100 foot long Archimedes screw type impeller to capture the Kinetic Energy. One like this Eco Auger this guy is using to generate electrical power with.

http://www.popsci.com/diy/article/2010- ... al-turbine
cyclonebuster
Forum Neophyte

Posts: 6
Joined: 07 Dec 2010