I am alive... (Consciousness, meaning & dualism)

Discussions on the nature of reality and knowledge. What is reality? How do we know it?

Re: I am alive... (Consciousness, meaning & dualism)

Postby AntonArtaud on January 10th, 2009, 12:09 am

chaoticcomplexity wrote:
Duma wrote:Being alive
I always wondered.. since I came from a sperm and an egg.. how did i come into consciousness and inhabit this body of mine..

its a crazy thing that i can even think... this body I inhibit is conscious that it is alive... and one day I will be dead.. and my conscious being will dissappear again..is the mind and body really 2 seperate things...


It seems to me that you are at a stage of a realization...before you do not have these thoughts, but now you have them, there is something happening, evolving within you. The "feeling" of distinction between the mind and the body is gradually emerging. Is the death of the body the end of one's existence or is one's death a process of being fully "born" to another "form" of existence, that is pure concsciousness or of similar kind and that these realizations are signs of the formation of this possibility?

As one matures in this lifetime, he may have an awareness, a feeling that he inhabits his body....is this a sign of a stage of preparation for another "growth"? How and what it is like to be a consciousness without the body?

How come I am I am? How is this consciousness...this sense of identity....this very identity...I am?

When we die...it cannot be known...our universe collapses as we cease to exist, but this is not a final answer, I guess. What if death is a sort of "transformation process"? Waht if it is an umbilical cord to another "form" of existence, or a continuation of some sort?

What if this dualism is a sign of what is ahead of us? (in the meantime, one can say that this line of reflection is a result of our being).


The function of dualism to validate existence. The abstract mind becomes aware of the physical world. To be aware is to be aware of something. The constant mind chatter manifests this validation by affirming existence.

That is, we question, " Am I," with "I Am." Duality is the physical and abstract engaged to affirm our sense of "being" in the world.

If there was only abstract mind, there would be no tension of opposites or affirmation.

If there was only physical brain, there would be no tension of opposites or affirmation.
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Postby Neri on January 25th, 2009, 2:24 pm

One cannot be conscious without being conscious of something. That is, consciousness always intends an object. Our awareness of any object would disappear as soon as it was experienced, were it not for memory. Because memory is the thing that makes consciousness real, memory and consciousness are actually the same. To put it differently, temporal extent (memory) gives awareness its ontological status.

Primary memory is more or less concurrent with sensory impressions excited by things in the world. However, the brain has the capacity to store memories in such a way that they are not experienced all at once but may be recalled individually. When a stored memory is recalled, it is experienced as secondary memory. One is able to distinguish primary and secondary memories, except when one is asleep.

Consciousness of self emerges from the accumulated memories of the body’s interactions with the world. In other words, self-consciousness is learned. However, once learned, self-consciousness becomes a continuous primary memory (so long as one is neither comatose nor dead). Because it provides alternatives and thereby gives rise to free actions, self-consciousness may be called voluntary memory. Humans have a far greater capacity for voluntary memory than other animals. This capacity is the source of ideas and language.

Organic and reflex actions result from involuntary memory, in the sense that they are purely a matter of genetic programming and result from predetermined causes. However, involuntary actions may also be learned. Such things as standing, walking, running, driving a car and flying an airplane involve both voluntary and involuntary actions that have been learned and remembered. The actions of many lower animals are largely involuntary.

Although consciousness requires a certain cognitive capacity, it is learned through sensory information established as memory. Sensory information, memory and learning presuppose an objective reality with the transcendence of time and space (a world real in itself).

We are able to learn, because we are able to recognize our experiences. However, recognition does not necessitate an “understanding of the essence of things” but requires only a realization that a present experience is the same as, or very much like, one that is recalled from stored memory. Recognition confers separateness on objects of experience and gives rise to the linguistic “naming of things” (nouns).

However, our experience of the world is not only that “things exist,” but also that “things act.” Indeed, without action, we would not become conscious of our own existence, for self-awareness is the experience of the body as both the subject and object of action. Of course, we are also aware that objects interact independently of the body. This realization gives rise to the use of words that indicate action of various sorts (verbs).

The many aspects of human cognition and language are matters far too complex to be treated here. For present purposes, it is sufficient to say that the human brain has been principally concerned with making sense of the world. To do this, it has settled upon a cardinal induction, usually stated as—“Nothing happens without a reason”—or—“All things have a cause.” When I say this is an induction, I mean that it is not derived from logic, but rather from experience.

Historically, both imagination and logic have been employed in the search for causes. The imagination has given us the various religions of the world as well as the belief in such things as the soul, the spirit world, the afterlife and the divine right of kings. Logic has given rise to the technological civilizations of the modern era.

By logic, I mean the use of deductions that take for granted inductions such as the one referred to above [as well as others not relevant to the present discussion]. Characteristic of this approach has been the idea that all general principles rise or fall on what is actually observed or experienced. The latter is usually referred to as “fact,” “data,” or “evidence”—in contradistinction to general principles, which are usually called “opinions,” “theories,” or “hypotheses.” However, the distinction between the two is seldom assiduously maintained.

One may think that there is no difference of opinion on what exactly constitutes a cause. However, nothing can be further from the truth. In both law and philosophy, there are several kinds of causes. However, the one of principal concern here is the predictive or mechanical cause. This sort of cause is mainly the province of the sciences.

Predictive causes are said to have both prospective and retrospective validity. That is, they depend upon the notion that not only the present/past but also the future is fully determined. This notion is based upon the conviction that all events are controlled by immutable natural laws.

The ordinary view is that some things are determined in advance by natural laws while others can only be estimated on the basis of probability. In other words, the “man in the street” believes that while the present/past is certain, the future is not.

Many physicists seem to have great difficulty understanding why time cannot be reversed--why effects cannot precede causes. This is because natural laws take the form of mathematical equations that are fully reversible. Moreover, the scientific community has been profoundly influenced by three hundred years of scientific determinism.

It is little wonder that the advent of quantum theory caused considerable consternation among some scientists. When they were told that, on the subatomic level, one cannot really be sure what will happen until it happens or that the effect must always follow the cause or that time is irreversible—they called such things “strange,” “bizarre,” “incomprehensible.”

At least so far as causation is concerned, it seems that the common wisdom has prevailed after all: Everything has a known cause only when viewed retrospectively. The future really is uncertain. What is done cannot be undone. This state of affairs not only permits the future to be random. It also permits it to be freely-willed. We cannot escape the conclusion, therefore, that we are responsible for the things that we do.
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Postby tulle on January 25th, 2009, 4:08 pm

According to ancient religions the soul is eternal and the body is perishable. some claim that we reincarnate up to 86 times in each life cycle, they also claim that we only experience consciousness when we are in the body while we stay dormant in the soul state. Ancient sages say that only the ones with elevated consciousness can experience the soul state. I tend to find this knowledge logical when there is nothing logical about us living on a ball that is hovering in space!
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Postby Neri on January 25th, 2009, 4:57 pm

tulle,

One can, of course, believe whatever one wants; yet, facts are stubborn things.
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Postby chaoticcomplexity on January 25th, 2009, 8:10 pm

Neri wrote:tulle,

One can, of course, believe whatever one wants; yet, facts are stubborn things.


One can believe whatever one wants? Do you mean to say that one can believe anything without the influence of constraints?
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Postby Neri on January 26th, 2009, 11:46 am

CC,

I am saying that one can believe what he wants but should only believe what is justified
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Postby AntonArtaud on January 26th, 2009, 3:45 pm

Neri wrote:CC,

I am saying that one can believe what he wants but should only believe what is justified


This is the essential issue in Epistemology.
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Issue in Epistemology

Postby PeSla on January 26th, 2009, 4:13 pm

Neri wrote:One cannot be conscious without being conscious of something. That is, consciousness always intends an object.


Anton, but some philosophers suggest we move on from this preoccupation with how we think and the nature of objects that are things at least we think about, and get down to the essential question of what the being is itself, what is the " object"-tive world. It is clear that the metaphysics behind all of your positions has a model or trend in history of some philosophy.

So, by justified we can mean several things and emphasize several philosophies. But is the object of our enquiry one of being as perhaps some sort of physicality such as force or is it an object of our mysterious viewing of things within the compass of our phenomenology? After all, some assert we cannot be our own object of such awareness. To define time or even causation- which can be a physical justification- thus a moral one as a possible answer or vital modern question- as memory just widens the debate and of course brings in the sense of religion or philosophy as having some sort of historical basis.

We analytically find things by tearing them apart or we bring them together synthetically- we debate from a top down or bottom up view just how valid would be induction say over deduction- is this just epistemology? After all nature seems to have a model of this when we release energy in the universe by fission or fusion. Also there are pragmatic ways to justify a belief, I suppose it can justify a white lie or maybe be a placebo for the self-esteem of children or the benefits of positive thinking for the ill be it in one person or as part of the collective spirit of a community.

tulle, there is the spirit too, traditionally, and it had not been settled if the soul was finite or eternal- it was sort of material in that it would also be illogical to say that the spirit as a visitor was living on the ball or sphere of a unique soul in "space". Now what justifies one life to be repeated or redone if there is, as there is now as in each incarnation, no memory? Is the soul a pointless atom or region of space? Can we transcend the cycle ever? Or as the ancients asked- when the Buddha is reincarnated as a little child again how is it he is not born instantly enlightened? How is it indeed that a Buddha could be conscious of such objects of his Buddhahood?
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Postby chaoticcomplexity on January 29th, 2009, 6:30 am

Neri wrote:CC,

I am saying that one can believe what he wants but should only believe what is justified


It seems to me that one cannot just believe what he wants to. There are constraints to beliefs. There are structures that control belief and even an insane person is controlled by some of these structures. Even a changing mind is constrained. Do you think the conscious part of us is wholly in control so that whatever we want to believe consciously, we come to believe?

Some of our beliefs have to based on instinct, so that we don't need justification on these aspects. Of course, some must have justification. I think, not all have to be justified. Time changes and contexts after contexts come and go so that it would be impractical to justify everything in order to believe. Not only that it would be impractical, it would be dangerous in some contexts to wait for justification before we believe. The solution space of existence is vast so that we don't have to rely on justification alone at some levels of contexts.

I think the question is at what level of or at what contexts justification is useful to believing.
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Just listen to Neri!

Postby time zero on January 29th, 2009, 11:50 am

Human thought is chaos. But you keep bringing it back. Every post has been. Oh ya! this guy said or well if you.... And then it gets off track. It turns into the bag in the wind thing. YOU NEED TO SUBTRACT HUMAN THOUGHT TO UNDERSTAND EXISTENCE! Go get a biology degree and read some psychology. You can than actually see why you exist! We are nothing more than a walking pool of germs, chemicals, molecules, and atoms working together. If your depressed then its because those things are doing some thing. Not because so and so said that existence is blah blah blah blah blah.
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Just listen to Neri! cont.

Postby time zero on January 29th, 2009, 12:33 pm

Not to assume. But the "thinking is over rated" guy meant. Horses commit suicide because they have more of this and less of that. So there brains compute "OH! next step suicide." Nothing more than a process of learned experience (over generations) and the right chemicals going to the right place. You are / we are nothing special.
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Postby QuiteDragon on January 29th, 2009, 4:09 pm

AntonArtaud wrote:Strictly speaking "thinking" requires language. This leaves animals out of the thinking domain.
Strictly speaking, recalling images and the resultant compare/contrast | conclusion activity of a mind would certainly make for adequate conditions to allow "thought". I see no reason to believe animals can't do that. Indeed, I would be very surprised if they didn't.
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Postby bigevil on February 5th, 2009, 6:58 am

For all you know, you may be the only life. You alone may be the only one capable of thought. Regardless of this external world and all its detail, one thing you can be certain is that you are perceiving all this physical stuff like people, trees, colours and other visuals and sounds because of thought. Thought exists, and it will continue to exist only because of controversy. Say the physical world doesn't really exist and only your mind does. If nothing is to evoke thinking and perception, nothing would be percieved. No perception of anything would be nothing, and there would be no existence. Try explain what nothing is.
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Postby QuiteDragon on February 5th, 2009, 10:42 am

Welcome, bigevil

bigevil wrote:Try explain what nothing is.

It is not
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