benefits of education for technology

Not quite philosophy discussions, debates, various thought experiments and other topics of interest.

Re: benefits of education for technology

Postby Athena on August 19th, 2015, 11:22 am 

CanadysPeak » August 18th, 2015, 2:29 pm wrote:Athena,
Questioning a source is an almost a priori task of critical thought. Are you arguing that we should not do critical thinking? I don't understand.

Talmon's ideas are interesting and, I think, partly valid for the US in the past couple of decades, but I fail to see the tie-in with education for technology. I think you have to make the case that the US education system once prepared good democrats and now it doesn't. Just saying it over and over doesn't make it so. Can you point to any evidence that the schools turned out good citizens in, say, 1910? What did they know that I don't?

Everybody tracks us. Even this forum has popups that advertise the latest thing I was looking at online. Privacy is gone.


I wish I could bring the arguments in this forum together with the arguments in another forum. The other forum is making completely different assumptions and completely different arguments. Over there I am being attacked for saying math is important, and they are arguing how it can lead to tyranny. Over here what I am saying of the potential danger is all wrong, because Sarolea hated Germans, and therefore what he has to say has no value. As both forums find fault with my post for completely opposite reasons, I am beginning to see the humor in this effort to have meaningful discussion.

I do not want to get jumped on again for repeating myself, so I can't answer your questions. Sorry- but hey, if I answer your questions, I will jumped on for repeating myself. That is what is supposed to happen right? The object is to find fault with someone what someone is saying, right? As many times as I have argued that teaching critical thinking is vital to democracy, I just can't make that argument again, without repeating myself and getting jumped on for that!

Now I will return to the other forum and deal with the attacks I am getting for saying math is important. They make really intelligent statements such as, since all my needs are met and I have so much leisure time to study math, I will probably start studying religion. Kind of makes a person wonder why s/he keeps returning to this futility.
Athena
Banned User
 
Posts: 1891
Joined: 22 Apr 2012
Location: Eugene, Oregon


Re: benefits of education for technology

Postby CanadysPeak on August 19th, 2015, 6:17 pm 

Athena » Wed Aug 19, 2015 11:22 am wrote:
CanadysPeak » August 18th, 2015, 2:29 pm wrote:Athena,
Questioning a source is an almost a priori task of critical thought. Are you arguing that we should not do critical thinking? I don't understand.

Talmon's ideas are interesting and, I think, partly valid for the US in the past couple of decades, but I fail to see the tie-in with education for technology. I think you have to make the case that the US education system once prepared good democrats and now it doesn't. Just saying it over and over doesn't make it so. Can you point to any evidence that the schools turned out good citizens in, say, 1910? What did they know that I don't?

Everybody tracks us. Even this forum has popups that advertise the latest thing I was looking at online. Privacy is gone.


I wish I could bring the arguments in this forum together with the arguments in another forum. The other forum is making completely different assumptions and completely different arguments. Over there I am being attacked for saying math is important, and they are arguing how it can lead to tyranny. Over here what I am saying of the potential danger is all wrong, because Sarolea hated Germans, and therefore what he has to say has no value. As both forums find fault with my post for completely opposite reasons, I am beginning to see the humor in this effort to have meaningful discussion.

I do not want to get jumped on again for repeating myself, so I can't answer your questions. Sorry- but hey, if I answer your questions, I will jumped on for repeating myself. That is what is supposed to happen right? The object is to find fault with someone what someone is saying, right? As many times as I have argued that teaching critical thinking is vital to democracy, I just can't make that argument again, without repeating myself and getting jumped on for that!

Now I will return to the other forum and deal with the attacks I am getting for saying math is important. They make really intelligent statements such as, since all my needs are met and I have so much leisure time to study math, I will probably start studying religion. Kind of makes a person wonder why s/he keeps returning to this futility.


How can you repeat yourself for answering my question if you have never answered the first time? I'm tired.
CanadysPeak
Resident Expert
 
Posts: 5880
Joined: 31 Dec 2008


Re: benefits of education for technology

Postby mtbturtle on August 19th, 2015, 7:33 pm 

CanadysPeak » Wed Aug 19, 2015 5:17 pm wrote:
Athena » Wed Aug 19, 2015 11:22 am wrote:
CanadysPeak » August 18th, 2015, 2:29 pm wrote:Athena,
Questioning a source is an almost a priori task of critical thought. Are you arguing that we should not do critical thinking? I don't understand.

Talmon's ideas are interesting and, I think, partly valid for the US in the past couple of decades, but I fail to see the tie-in with education for technology. I think you have to make the case that the US education system once prepared good democrats and now it doesn't. Just saying it over and over doesn't make it so. Can you point to any evidence that the schools turned out good citizens in, say, 1910? What did they know that I don't?

Everybody tracks us. Even this forum has popups that advertise the latest thing I was looking at online. Privacy is gone.


I wish I could bring the arguments in this forum together with the arguments in another forum. The other forum is making completely different assumptions and completely different arguments. Over there I am being attacked for saying math is important, and they are arguing how it can lead to tyranny. Over here what I am saying of the potential danger is all wrong, because Sarolea hated Germans, and therefore what he has to say has no value. As both forums find fault with my post for completely opposite reasons, I am beginning to see the humor in this effort to have meaningful discussion.

I do not want to get jumped on again for repeating myself, so I can't answer your questions. Sorry- but hey, if I answer your questions, I will jumped on for repeating myself. That is what is supposed to happen right? The object is to find fault with someone what someone is saying, right? As many times as I have argued that teaching critical thinking is vital to democracy, I just can't make that argument again, without repeating myself and getting jumped on for that!

Now I will return to the other forum and deal with the attacks I am getting for saying math is important. They make really intelligent statements such as, since all my needs are met and I have so much leisure time to study math, I will probably start studying religion. Kind of makes a person wonder why s/he keeps returning to this futility.


How can you repeat yourself for answering my question if you have never answered the first time? I'm tired.


I would have thought a yes or no would answer the question.
User avatar
mtbturtle
Banned User
 
Posts: 9742
Joined: 16 Dec 2005


Re: benefits of education for technology

Postby Paralith on August 20th, 2015, 5:41 pm 

Athena wrote:As many times as I have argued that teaching critical thinking is vital to democracy, I just can't make that argument again, without repeating myself and getting jumped on for that!


You're not answering the questions, Athena. The questions aren't "Hey Athena, tell us what you think the importance of critical thinking is?" They are much more specific, like Canadys' latest question,

CanadysPeak wrote:Can you point to any evidence that the schools turned out good citizens in, say, 1910? What did they know that I don't?


When we ask you specific questions like this, you don't answer them. You just say the same things you've been saying before. You seem to think that the same canned response is a sufficient response to all our varied and specific questions, but it just isn't.

Can you answer the question? What did a high school graduate in 1910 know and understand that a high school graduate in 1950 did not? That a high school graduate in 2015 does not?
User avatar
Paralith
Resident Expert
 
Posts: 3039
Joined: 04 Jan 2008
Blog: View Blog (2)


Re: benefits of education for technology

Postby Athena on August 21st, 2015, 2:46 pm 

Paralith » August 20th, 2015, 3:41 pm wrote:
Athena wrote:As many times as I have argued that teaching critical thinking is vital to democracy, I just can't make that argument again, without repeating myself and getting jumped on for that!


You're not answering the questions, Athena. The questions aren't "Hey Athena, tell us what you think the importance of critical thinking is?" They are much more specific, like Canadys' latest question,

CanadysPeak wrote:Can you point to any evidence that the schools turned out good citizens in, say, 1910? What did they know that I don't?


When we ask you specific questions like this, you don't answer them. You just say the same things you've been saying before. You seem to think that the same canned response is a sufficient response to all our varied and specific questions, but it just isn't.


Can you answer the question? What did a high school graduate in 1910 know and understand that a high school graduate in 1950 did not? That a high school graduate in 2015 does not?


You are right, I am reading post that make me feel like shit, and this one did from the first line. This is a bit insane don't you think? Why would anyone spend time reading post that make a person feel awful?
Athena
Banned User
 
Posts: 1891
Joined: 22 Apr 2012
Location: Eugene, Oregon


Re: benefits of education for technology

Postby mtbturtle on August 21st, 2015, 3:00 pm 

Athena wrote:You are right, I am reading post that make me feel like shit, and this one did from the first line. This is a bit insane don't you think? Why would anyone spend time reading post that make a person feel awful?


Athena,
If questions make you feel bad, then this isn't the forum for you. We aren't going to stop asking you questions and expecting you to answer them because you say it makes you feel bad. Continued unresponsive behavior will result in this thread being lock and you perhaps being banned. We aren't here for your preaching. Now the question put to you is, "Can you point to any evidence that the schools turned out good citizens in, say, 1910? What did they know that I don't?"
User avatar
mtbturtle
Banned User
 
Posts: 9742
Joined: 16 Dec 2005


Re: benefits of education for technology

Postby Athena on August 21st, 2015, 3:22 pm 

CanadysPeak » August 19th, 2015, 4:17 pm wrote:[quote="[url=http://www.sciencechatforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=286344#p286344]
How can you repeat yourself for answering my question if you have never answered the first time? I'm tired.


Over and over again I have said critical thinking is to democracy, but I guess I am not putting my words together well. However, I found a link that uses terminology that might resonate better?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_education_system

Americans were especially impressed with the Prussian system when they set up normal schools to train teachers, because they admired the German emphasis on social cohesion. By the 20th century, however, the progressive education movement emphasized individuality and creativity more and opted for a less European-inspired curriculum and lower social cohesion and uniformity.[34] The Progressives faced a major setback with the Sputnik crisis, which led again to more focus on quality education and selectiveness of the school system.[35]


There is something good and bad about everything. I am strongly in favor of social cohesion but not at the expense of individuality, but the result of Darwinism and individuality at the early industrial age was terrible. We need some kind of compromise.
Athena
Banned User
 
Posts: 1891
Joined: 22 Apr 2012
Location: Eugene, Oregon


Re: benefits of education for technology

Postby Athena on August 24th, 2015, 5:20 pm 

The questions asked are a bit of a challenge. Some of them I already answered and people find fault in me for repeating myself. Some seem to make wrong assumptions about my position and what I am saying, and I want to correct that. I came specifically to address what I believe are wrong assumptions about my position, and want to post the link before going on to the question about education in 1910, before the WWI introduction of education for technology.

http://www.livescience.com/40283-ngss-s ... ation.html

This link provides an opinion that I would say is a definite concern

1. More than facts

For too long, science education in the United States has emphasized rote memorization, said David L. Evans, executive director of the National Science Teachers Association, which helped develop the NGSS. [25 Fun Facts From the World of Science]

That approach leaves out the most important part of science: the practices and critical thinking that scientists actually use to do their jobs. "Science is more than a textbook full of facts," Evans said.

Under the NGSS, students will instead concentrate on asking questions, developing hypotheses, testing models, making evidence-based arguments and learning other skills that real scientists "use all the time," Evans said.

Instead of simply telling a class that, for example, the phases of the moon follow from the orbits of the Earth and moon, teachers might ask students to posit theories. "The question might be, 'Why doesn't the moon look the same this week as it did last week?'" he said.
Athena
Banned User
 
Posts: 1891
Joined: 22 Apr 2012
Location: Eugene, Oregon


Re: benefits of education for technology

Postby Athena on August 24th, 2015, 5:36 pm 

Education in 1910, perhaps I have not already said this was a classical education? The subject of this thread at CanadysPeak request is benefits of education for technology and that begins in 1917 when we mobilized for the first world war. Classical, liberal, humanist they are all basically the same and this would have been the focus of education in 1910.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanistic_education

Humanistic education has its roots in Renaissance philosophers who emphasised the study of the humanities: grammar, rhetoric, history, poetry and moral philosophy; these in turn built upon Classical models of education.[8]


What the students of the past learned that is not learned today is literacy in the Greek and Roman classics, and I argue this education is important to defending democracy in the classroom.

In the 1970s the term "humanistic education" became less popular after conservative groups equated it with "Secular Humanism" and attacked the writings of Harold Lyon as being anti-Christian.
Surely I have addressed the religious problem and the problem with leaving moral education to the church after 1958, haven't I?

The humanistic approach places a great deal of emphasis on students' choice and control over the course of their education. Students are encouraged to make choices that range from day-to-day activities to periodically setting future life goals. This allows for students to focus on a specific subject of interest for any amount of time they choose, within reason. Humanistic teachers believe it is important for students to be motivated and engaged in the material they are learning, and this happens when the topic is something the students need and want to know.


This is a very important point! It is the difference between education for our democracy or education for Military Industrial Complex. There are serious social and political ramifications to this change in education.

Have I once again failed to the answer the question? Like maybe someone can demonstrate what a good answer looks like?
Athena
Banned User
 
Posts: 1891
Joined: 22 Apr 2012
Location: Eugene, Oregon


Re: benefits of education for technology

Postby CanadysPeak on August 26th, 2015, 9:21 pm 

I promised Turtle that I would not engage Athena in argument, and I will not. Yet, Athena sent me a PM noting her frustration about making her position clear in this topic. It is not my intention to take any particular position in this discussion, but I do wish to point out a possible path that (what I understand as) her position might be presented.

Edward Thorndike had a huge influence on educational thought around the turn of the century. He ws not the only one, of course, merely the most influential. His views came to be known as behavioralism, which might be thought of as an early version of conditioned learning. Thorndike clearly thought there were standard courses to be taught, often by rote, and leading to "correct" answers.

Shortly afterwards, American business was enthralled by Taylorism, the practices of scientific management taught by Frederick Taylor. Taylor is the man most often associated with time and motion studies or, perhaps, industrial efficiency, i.e., how can a manager get the greatest possible production from a worker. A disastrous corrolary of seeking efficiency was the principle that workers should be tested and judged suitable or unsuitable for a given task, so that only those workers most likely to be highly productive would be employed at that task.

American educators, not a terribly intelligent bunch, melded Taylorism and behavioralism in an attempt to maximize the efficiency of education and educate as many people as possible. This amalgam played a significant role in the implementation of the Smith-Hughes Act of 1917, to wit:

Vocational teachers were required to be competent in their fields, and pedagogical preparation was minimized.

Standardized testing was widely introduced as a means of measuring efficiency. Critical analysis gave way correct answers and essays gave way to multiple-guess tests.

Students were tested and sorted into educational tracks as early as possible.

Vocational courses were tailored to the needs of the farms, industries, and businesses, rather than to the need of the students.

I personally don't find any of this terrible, for reasons I will not air here, but an opponent of vocational education could make a sound, well-researched, well-cited case based solely on the harm of putting Taylorism, in any form, into the schools. Such a presentation could easily show Dewey to be against much of Taylorism and behavioralism, and might use Gagne as a source for comparisons of the effectiveness of the various methods.

My olive branch, Athena. I'll say no more.
CanadysPeak
Resident Expert
 
Posts: 5880
Joined: 31 Dec 2008


Re: benefits of education for technology

Postby vivian maxine on August 27th, 2015, 7:02 am 

"American educators, not a terribly intelligent bunch, " (Canadys)

Ahhhhh!!!!!!!
vivian maxine
Resident Member
 
Posts: 2823
Joined: 01 Aug 2014


Re: benefits of education for technology

Postby Athena on August 27th, 2015, 12:01 pm 

vivian maxine » August 27th, 2015, 5:02 am wrote:"American educators, not a terribly intelligent bunch, " (Canadys)

Ahhhhh!!!!!!!


If someone who cares about this subject is reading it then, perhaps I should respond.

Teachers have misunderstood my complaint about education to be an attack on them. That is completely backwards because I think 90% of the time we should trust the teacher. However, it is possible for a whole school to develop a bad culture, and when this happens the principle must be changed and this person must be a very strong person, because it is very hard to change the culture of a school. It is the culture of the school that is ery important. A school with a good culture will be supportive of teachers, who are on board with making education a positive experience for everyone.

So what is a positive school experience? If a student is having trouble with math, and can be given extra assistance, or guided into something that does not require math, that will be a positive experience. What happened where I live is teachers thought they should not have to waste time on poor students, the result being many students dropped out because they came to believe they were stupid, and there was no point in them staying in school. In the past students commonly dropped out in the 8th grade and went to work. Jobs did not require a lot of education, and society required people with a good character.

The 1958 National Defense Education Act changed the fundamental purpose of education and lead to the problem of teachers thinking they should not have to waste spend time on poor students. Now we were no longer manifesting the Enlightenment of improving life by improving individuals. How we valued people was changed. Instead of valuing people because of their character, we started valuing them by their score on IQ test, designed to help teachers identify those students best suited for higher education, specifically for military reasons. The IQ test for a limited range of intelligence that is needed for the rapid development of military technology and this goes with a mind set that is destructive of democracy, because it is amoral and dependent on authority.

I was asked what students learned before NDEA. They learned to be good citizens. This was not the best possible education, but it had different social, economic and political ramifications.
Athena
Banned User
 
Posts: 1891
Joined: 22 Apr 2012
Location: Eugene, Oregon


Re: benefits of education for technology

Postby Athena on August 27th, 2015, 12:24 pm 

CanadysPeak » August 26th, 2015, 7:21 pm wrote:I promised Turtle that I would not engage Athena in argument, and I will not. Yet, Athena sent me a PM noting her frustration about making her position clear in this topic. It is not my intention to take any particular position in this discussion, but I do wish to point out a possible path that (what I understand as) her position might be presented.

Edward Thorndike had a huge influence on educational thought around the turn of the century. He ws not the only one, of course, merely the most influential. His views came to be known as behavioralism, which might be thought of as an early version of conditioned learning. Thorndike clearly thought there were standard courses to be taught, often by rote, and leading to "correct" answers.

Shortly afterwards, American business was enthralled by Taylorism, the practices of scientific management taught by Frederick Taylor. Taylor is the man most often associated with time and motion studies or, perhaps, industrial efficiency, i.e., how can a manager get the greatest possible production from a worker. A disastrous corrolary of seeking efficiency was the principle that workers should be tested and judged suitable or unsuitable for a given task, so that only those workers most likely to be highly productive would be employed at that task.

American educators, not a terribly intelligent bunch, melded Taylorism and behavioralism in an attempt to maximize the efficiency of education and educate as many people as possible. This amalgam played a significant role in the implementation of the Smith-Hughes Act of 1917, to wit:

Vocational teachers were required to be competent in their fields, and pedagogical preparation was minimized.

Standardized testing was widely introduced as a means of measuring efficiency. Critical analysis gave way correct answers and essays gave way to multiple-guess tests.

Students were tested and sorted into educational tracks as early as possible.

Vocational courses were tailored to the needs of the farms, industries, and businesses, rather than to the need of the students.

I personally don't find any of this terrible, for reasons I will not air here, but an opponent of vocational education could make a sound, well-researched, well-cited case based solely on the harm of putting Taylorism, in any form, into the schools. Such a presentation could easily show Dewey to be against much of Taylorism and behavioralism, and might use Gagne as a source for comparisons of the effectiveness of the various methods.

My olive branch, Athena. I'll say no more.


Yes, I would rather CanadysPeak participate as long as I can ignore his questions when I am overly emotional, and well-meaning people do not jump on me for repeating myself or not answering questions. The problem is he and I really do care, and our emotions are interfering. From now on, he and I will take our personal fight to the back room.

Let us pick on the Conceptual Method versus the Behaviorist Method. This hits the nail on the head, and shoots my blood sky high. We need emoticon's because emotions are so much a part of communications.

The Conceptual Method teaches children progressive more complex concepts, such as democracy is a very complex concept consisting of many simple concepts. Understanding this has social and political ramifications. But Behaviorist education doesn't care about this. The Behaviorist Method is also used for training dogs. It is a method of reward and punishment to get the desired programmed response. A criticism of Germany was that it was a mechanical society and that is what using the Behaviorist Method gets a mechanical society.

Now we come to the notion that instead of the Enlightenment ideal of individualism, it is the ant colony that is the become the ideal. Not the democracy we defended in two world wars, but the Military Industrial Complex. It is the notion that humanity has always been evolving into an ant colony. And I want to stress the problem is not education alone, but the bureaucratic order that goes with it. The social, economic and political ramifications of this combination of education and social organization are huge!
Athena
Banned User
 
Posts: 1891
Joined: 22 Apr 2012
Location: Eugene, Oregon


Re: benefits of education for technology

Postby marcellarjones on May 24th, 2016, 3:54 am 

Technology has immense benefits in education. It is, we can say, the backbone of today's education system.
marcellarjones
Forum Neophyte
 
Posts: 4
Joined: 24 May 2016


Previous

Return to Odds & Ends

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests