Musings about "intelligence"

Not quite philosophy discussions, debates, various thought experiments and other topics of interest.

Musings about "intelligence"

Postby BadgerJelly on January 4th, 2013, 2:59 am 

Initial Approach

On a scale of 1-10 how intelligent are you?

This is one of those questions that is easier to answer than you'd first think ... it simply depends on how you look at the question.

I am the most intelligent entity I "know" of so I am rated at 10. Those who come close to understanding me and hold similar "logical" beliefs are going to be higher up my scale.

I am also the least intelligent person I "know" of so I am rated at 1. This is because I am aware of my vast ignorance on when it comes to attempting to resolve certain issues (find "answers").

So the question how intelligent are you on a scale of 1-10 is a pretty unintelligent question ... or is it?


Secondary Approach

Having now abandoned a scaled measurement of "intelligence" I propose another tilt on this concept.

It is a question of ...

A) Communicating information.
and
B) Translating/expanding information.

This in itself has two further key aspects that are absolute clinical representation and emotionally driven representation.

Communicating information can never be exact because time IS. Therefore emotional content will be altered because time IS. In a sense I am referring to "intelligence" as a rate of expanding and comprehensible "paradigms". "Paradigms" are not set rules they are plastic through emotional comprehension, reflection and transmission.

Example : We have all read a book. The underlying principle of what a book is is limited by our "intelligence". What many may do here is confuse "intelligence" with absolute clinical communication (ie. we all read the same book so we must also have gained the same information from this book - obvious fallacy!).

A book is something we read.
A book is an expression of opinions.
A book is a piece of art.
A book is a physical object made out of paper.
A book is a storage device for information.
A book is a concept.
A book is a collection of concepts.

I could go on and on ... the point being is that the mere concept of the word "book" shows that it is has no fixed meaning.

Using this example I consider "intelligence" to be the realisation, and encouragement, of change. One idea can grow many new ones and kill just as many. One idea is all we have in the moment and the recognition of the options is a sign of "intelligence".

Intelligence is not measurable it is remarkable (Maybe in every sense of the word concept "remarkable" ...?)
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Re: Musings about "intelligence"

Postby sponge on January 4th, 2013, 1:06 pm 

Intellectually, we are taught to increase our intelligence by logical thought and careful reasoning.
Emotionally, we increase our intelligence by ‘being moved’ by the words or actions of another person or by a piece of art.

Both of the above methods, I think, alter our perspective on the world around us and sharpen our ability to increase our awareness further. The reason that we seem to be divided into people who communicate information through ‘clinical representation’ and those that favour ‘emotionally driven representation’ might be because of an imbalance in the way that our knowledge has come to us? Or, maybe, we are ‘wired’ to think differently?

We can only judge the world from the perspective of our personal standpoint but we can change and/or increase our view by visiting the viewpoints of others.

One thing I do know (perversely), is that deciding I know anything and closing my mind to any alternative is not only unintelligent but prevents the possibility of any widening of awareness.

BadgerJelly wrote:I consider "intelligence" to be the realisation, and encouragement, of change. One idea can grow many new ones and kill just as many. One idea is all we have in the moment and the recognition of the options is a sign of "intelligence".



I think I have just ended up saying exactly what you said. The attitude of keeping an open mind seems to be the key.
:)
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Re: Musings about "intelligence"

Postby Gregorygregg1 on January 4th, 2013, 5:38 pm 

Perhaps intelligence is overrated. It may take a great deal of intelligence to play a particular strategy game well. All it takes is an awareness that it is just a game to leave the geniuses to their battle while you go outside and enjoy the day.
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Re: Musings about "intelligence"

Postby BadgerJelly on January 6th, 2013, 2:00 am 

Er ... I am NOT talking about computer games or strategies.

To put it simply I see "intelligence" as being a balance of three core factors.

1) Receiving information.
2) Processing information (order/disorder AND/OR logically/intuitively).

and maybe most importantly of all ...

3) "Expelling" information (or expressing it).


The concept expands from here to question not WHAT we receive/process/expel but HOW we receive/process/expel and HOW we balance these cognitive functions.


If someone is very good at chess they are very good at chess. It does not make them more or less "intelligent" than someone useless at chess.

In this sense every entity, or if you want to be more precise and categorical; everyone and everything (physically or conceptually), has "intelligence".

So in this limited sense I would say "intelligence" is "high" if expression is "high" regardless of the amount of information received or processed.

So receiving information is the "art" of intelligence, processing information is the decimation of "intelligence" and the expression of information IS "intelligence" and nothing else. Obviously this opposes the concept of something being intelligible. ALL information is intelligible ... what is lacking is the "art" of receiving and the method of processing.

note: I am stretching concepts here and trying to make what appears to be unintelligible intelligible. This then leads to the question of where the limits are of sentient intelligence. Is a rock more "intelligent" than a human in this sense?
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Re: Musings about "intelligence"

Postby sponge on January 6th, 2013, 12:28 pm 

Okay… so, if I get what you’re saying, we could envisage intelligence in this context as ‘energy’ that every entity is receiving. Each entity, according to its essence, processes this energy and, depending on how well it has carried out this processing, expresses the energy in an altered form that can be received and processed further by the next entity that encounters it.

Then, if I am on track, as far as humans are concerned, the ability to process all incoming energy/intelligence becomes the key to the quality of the intelligence they express and thus has a direct effect on all other entities that encounter it.

If so, would this mean that the ‘amount’ of intelligence expressed is the most important thing? The ‘quality’ would not automatically fall into the classification of ‘good or bad’ (as we have come to judge intelligence) but would be judged on abundance, which would prove the efficiency of processing and provide a wide range of energy for other entities to receive and re-process.

Question; what are the special conditions for sentient animals where the processing does not follow automatic systems but comes under conscious control? Can the conscious process and end result still fit into the same formula? Or is something quite different happening?

If I’ve completely misunderstood, I hope you’ve got the patience to explain a little more. It looks like it could be an interesting concept with a lot of implications.
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Re: Musings about "intelligence"

Postby Gregorygregg1 on January 6th, 2013, 1:20 pm 

sponge wrote:Okay… so, if I get what you’re saying, we could envisage intelligence in this context as ‘energy’ that every entity is receiving. Each entity, according to its essence, processes this energy and, depending on how well it has carried out this processing, expresses the energy in an altered form that can be received and processed further by the next entity that encounters it.


So you are equating intelligence to a laser. The crystalline core accepts and organizes input energy and emits an organized beam of information. This is a process more akin to thinking. Intelligence would seem to be the ability to conceive of this in the first place, and then adapt the laser as a surgical tool. The ability to extrapolate.
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Re: Musings about "intelligence"

Postby sponge on January 6th, 2013, 1:50 pm 

I’m still trying to figure out Badger’s exact thinking so we’ll have to wait to find out what he means.

In the end, though - thinking, intelligence, energy - they are all just words and words have ever been inadequate for conveying the nuances of meaning.

I’m interested in BJ’s line of thinking here because it seems that it might be another way of viewing the all-pervading consciousness of existence and how it interacts with material being. I know you are in sympathy with the basic idea of a universal consciousness, GG, as I am. So, any avenue is worth pursuing to see where it leads, especially, as this seems to promise, a possible insight into the illusion of ‘good and bad’ and how this duality might be necessary and work for the evolvement of total expression.
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Re: Musings about "intelligence"

Postby BadgerJelly on January 6th, 2013, 1:58 pm 

I don't know sponge.

It is just me musing about a different perspective on "intelligence". I certainly didn't mean to imply any kind of "quality", "good" or "importance".

I guess I am really thinking about the "entropy" of intelligence and its relation to order/disorder and the concepts that dichotomy creates AND where they come from (so to speak).

Its just a random thought combined with physics, biology, language, magick, psychology, mathematics, philosophy and other crap I am reading/thinking about.
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Re: Musings about "intelligence"

Postby sponge on January 6th, 2013, 3:37 pm 

Fair enough; I’m known for creating patterns where none is intended, it’s what I do.
Looks like I’ve set myself something else to think about anyway :)

Meanwhile (and I don’t mean to hassle you), but you keep coming back to ‘entropy’ Can you collect some thoughts together about this sometime and explain your interest and some of the ideas it throws up for you?
I don't mean here or now, just when you get around to it, on another thread maybe.
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Re: Musings about "intelligence"

Postby Gregorygregg1 on January 6th, 2013, 4:06 pm 

BadgerJelly wrote:Its just a random thought combined with physics, biology, language, magick, psychology, mathematics, philosophy and other crap I am reading/thinking about.


Instead of stream of consciousness, confluence of consciousness. Where do the union of our currents take us?
I think it is what most of us do to some extent with the forum. You get a current of thought going and then see if you can find similar currents to make a little river. You can generally see how similar or different your thinking is by the length of thread it produces. There are general steady currents that continue to reoccur on the forum, and there are eddies that go nowhere - some pretty strong. The nature of thought is a steady current. We still haven't figured it out.
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Re: Musings about "intelligence"

Postby BadgerJelly on January 7th, 2013, 2:07 pm 

I’m known for creating patterns where none is intended, it’s what I do.


There are "patterns" in everything. I guess the problem is knowing which ones will be most helpful to our understanding and that is a dangerous and exciting path. Fantasy and imagination are helpful as long as you remember they are only guides as much as anything else ... you "know" this though from what you've said to me in the past.

As for entropy ... maybe I will, maybe I won't. Its an interesting topic and I LOVE physics to say the least and use what I "know" in as many ways as possible conceptually. I have too much to read but put simply the ideas of balance, time, matter, entropy, movement etc. are VERY intriguing and paradoxical for human comprehension. Entropy steps right up to the "edge" of the what happened "before" X question.

In fact what GG is saying relates to the concept of entropy and the idea of many "paths" of consciousness. I only see one path really and its chaos ... but chaos is order hence my reasoning about the "fallacy" of dichotomies. Sadly i think people avoid this because it seems there is no "meaning" to anything ... which is kind of true but if you take the line that dichotomies are a fallacy then "meaning"/"meaningless" become the "same"/"different".

Herein lies "sanity"/"insanity" ... this is our metaphysical limit "set" by our "existence" "within" "nothing".

I guess you can see why I am an avid believer in the ability of art. Mere word concepts will always fail ... I think William Blake was REALLY onto something.
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Re: Musings about "intelligence"

Postby sponge on January 7th, 2013, 4:29 pm 

I’m a bit of an adrenalin junkie where letting go of ‘sanity’ to look for answers is concerned and sometimes I forget to keep one foot on the floor, that’s all :)

I hope you do decide to discuss some of your ideas about entropy because, despite the fact that you are one of the most enigmatic writers I have ever encountered (or perhaps because of that), your views always intrigue me.

And yes, I agree that art is a more direct route to understanding – feeling above reason. Perhaps ‘fantasy and imagination’ is, in fact, my ‘art’ I never looked at it that way before :)
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Re: Musings about "intelligence"

Postby BadgerJelly on January 7th, 2013, 5:12 pm 

What is "reason" without "feeling" and what is "feeling" without "reason"?
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Re: Musings about "intelligence"

Postby sponge on January 7th, 2013, 5:20 pm 

BadgerJelly wrote:What is "reason" without "feeling" and what is "feeling" without "reason"?


one must inevitably lead to the other but one always has to lead.
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Re: Musings about "intelligence"

Postby DragonFly on January 7th, 2013, 5:47 pm 

sponge wrote:
BadgerJelly wrote:What is "reason" without "feeling" and what is "feeling" without "reason"?


one must inevitably lead to the other but one always has to lead.


Feeling is holistic and smooth; reason is discrete, distinct, and lumpy. They are representative of the dichotomy of the universe shown in the left/right brain hemispheres.
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Re: Musings about "intelligence"

Postby BadgerJelly on January 7th, 2013, 5:49 pm 

Nice way to side step the question! :P

Besides why are you so convinced of this statement you've made? What you say here seems to me to be one of the biggest traps we fall into repeatedly throughout life. If you fall into so many traps you start to reason/feel they are "correct" when for all you know you're just falling further and further away from a path of beauty ... metaphorically metaphorical ... kind of.

I've no idea what I am talking about and I believe that for the sake of not facing disbelief.

Feeling is holistic and smooth; reason is discrete, distinct, and lumpy. They are representative of the dichotomy of the universe shown in the left/right brain hemispheres.


Take your "lump" elsewhere then please! :)

Anyway enough! Good night and sweet dreams x
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Re: Musings about "intelligence"

Postby DragonFly on January 7th, 2013, 7:34 pm 

BadgerJelly wrote:I've no idea what I am talking about…
Take your "lump" elsewhere then please! :)


Yes, and no.

So, what would a rounded, working life/universe be, based on the mentioned dichotomy?
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Re: Musings about "intelligence"

Postby BadgerJelly on January 7th, 2013, 11:32 pm 

No idea
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Re: Musings about "intelligence"

Postby sponge on January 8th, 2013, 6:36 am 

BadgerJelly wrote:What is "reason" without "feeling" and what is "feeling" without "reason"?



They can’t be separated because they are the same as, I believe, existence and ‘non-existence’ are the same. But at times, in the ebb and flow of conscious attention, one or the other comes into clearer focus and seems to stand alone.
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Re: Musings about "intelligence"

Postby DragonFly on January 8th, 2013, 2:16 pm 

sponge wrote:
BadgerJelly wrote:What is "reason" without "feeling" and what is "feeling" without "reason"?



They can’t be separated because they are the same as, I believe, existence and ‘non-existence’ are the same. But at times, in the ebb and flow of conscious attention, one or the other comes into clearer focus and seems to stand alone.


Yes, but more like the Alpha (grouping order) and the Omega (symmetry order), and, yes, the "ebb and flow" is the alternating perspective, both of which inform, it settling on the view that is most useful for the particular instance. Being happy with the outcome is on the feeling side, and so decisions can be made by emotion's sway.


Balance

Not quite sober blest nor drunk to excess,
Never too foolish nor very reckless—
Yes, my passion is so reasonable
In this delicate state of awareness.

Life must be more like a mosaic done
Than a focused laser funnel of sun.
Since few lengthy pleasures are lent to us,
We build a stained-glass window of small ones.

I dare to walk the line, balancing fun
There between adventure and misfortune,
For the greatest blunder in life is to
Repeatedly fear that you will make one.

Classicists drone toward mechanical perfection;
Romanticists drown in emotion’s affection;
Even worse, others alternate between extremes.
The way’s not this or that, but joined in direction.

Each holds within itself the seed of the other—
Yin reaches climax, then retreats in Yang’s favor:
Cyclic movement of rotational symmetry.
Rounded life is the blend of Yin/Yang together.


Edges dissolve when opposites are balanced—
Time and dimensional space are transcended.
Everything joins, yet remains as it is,
For what “is not” is as great as what “is”.

Strive to maintain a dynamic balance—of light
And dark, hard and soft, Yin and Yang, and wrong and right.
Reality is found not in separate actions,
But in related events blended in twilight.

Opposites are just a different view
Of one fundamental phenomenon—
Light, beauty, and goodness are the inverse
Sides of darkness, ugliness, and evil.

All feelings, sad, happy, or in between,
Crisscross the woven cloth of our routine.
They’re reflections of life’s sensations,
Forming the rainbow that colors the scene.

(with apology to Lord Byron)
Let us have wine, lovers, song, and laughter,
Water, chastity, prayer the day after.
Such we’ll alternate the rest of our days—
On the average, we’ll make Hereafter!
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Re: Musings about "intelligence"

Postby DragonFly on January 8th, 2013, 2:52 pm 

DragonFly wrote:Yes, but more like the Alpha (grouping order) and the Omega (symmetry order)


Since we are the universe come to life, to learn of itself, we mote that eh left/right brain hemispheres reflect the nature of the universe (which is through time being able to function, at heart). The sensing, thinking, and order of the personality dichotomies of sensing/intuition, thinking/feeling, and oder (closure)/spontaneity (openness) are on the "grouping order" side, whereas intuition, feeling, and spontaneity are on the "symmetry order" side, thus reducing these to only two aspects of one main dichotomy.

Image
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Re: Musings about "intelligence"

Postby BadgerJelly on January 9th, 2013, 12:06 am 

There is no explanation of "grouping order" or "symmetry order".

How is grouping something any different from alluding to symmetry?

Is that your point? ... what is your point? ... how does this relate to "intelligence" and information? ... what is information?

How can spontaneity be on both sides of this dichotomy?

No more bloody "poetry" please!!
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Re: Musings about "intelligence"

Postby DragonFly on January 9th, 2013, 8:27 am 

BadgerJelly wrote:There is no explanation of "grouping order" or "symmetry order".

How is grouping something any different from alluding to symmetry?


It's all explained in 'The Theory of No Absolutes', which you posted in a few times:

http://www.sciencechatforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=23664


BadgerJelly wrote:Is that your point? ... what is your point? ... how does this relate to "intelligence" and information? ... what is information?


We have to operate the same as the universe does, since we are it.

BadgerJelly wrote:How can spontaneity be on both sides of this dichotomy?


Spontaneity is only on the symmetry order side; it is also called 'perception', and is opposed to orderliness, also called 'judging', which is on the grouping order side. This dichotomy is a way of carrying out our life.

Sensing/intuition are the two opposite preferences for obtaining information; thinking/feeling being for making decisions; extrovert/introvert being for how we are energized.

All are components of personality and also related to how we in our particular ways operate our intelligence.


(Left brain is like Yang; the right like Yin. Tao (all) = Yin + Yang)
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Re: Musings about "intelligence"

Postby BadgerJelly on January 9th, 2013, 1:23 pm 

Well I've just spent 10 minutes sifting through the entire thread and only found one of these concepts briefly mentioned so please explain them in one paragraph without putting them in bullet points or some poetry please.

We have to operate the same as the universe does, since we are it.


Sadly I can only agree with this or go into completely crazy realms.

Spontaneity is only on the symmetry order side


You made a typo then :

The sensing, thinking, and order of the personality dichotomies of sensing/intuition, thinking/feeling, and oder (closure)/spontaneity (openness) are on the "grouping order" side, whereas intuition, feeling, and spontaneity are on the "symmetry order" side


Anyway what do you mean by "perception"? Are you talking about the data we consciously know of or the total data our senses take in before they are filtered? In this sense are you saying "judging" is consciousness and the raw data that comes in through sensory input is "perception"?

From the OP:

Intelligence is not measurable it is remarkable (Maybe in every sense of the word concept "remarkable" ...?)


What I was looking at here was that this concept of "intelligence" is how information is re-marked, re-interpreted and many ways it can be so "remarkable". In a vague sense I am pointing towards precision as lacking "intelligence".

For some reason I think we are saying some pretty similar things but the language we are using is quite different.
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Re: Musings about "intelligence"

Postby DragonFly on January 9th, 2013, 2:13 pm 

BadgerJelly wrote:
We have to operate the same as the universe does, since we are it.


It's explained here:

http://www.sciencechatforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=23806
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Re: Musings about "intelligence"

Postby BadgerJelly on January 9th, 2013, 2:59 pm 

Okay I'll just assume you have no idea what you are talking about from now on if you cannot answer a simple and direct question.

All I have asked for is a summary of these concepts and all you have done is lead me on a wild goose chase to places where you've not even directly mentioned these concepts in any reasonable manner.

ONE last time I'll ask this ...

What do these concepts mean?

"grouping order" and "symmetry order"

Maybe start by saying "Grouping order means ..."

Look at this :

The sensing, thinking, and order of the personality dichotomies of sensing/intuition, thinking/feeling, and oder (closure)/spontaneity (openness) are on the "grouping order" side, whereas intuition, feeling, and spontaneity are on the "symmetry order" side, thus reducing these to only two aspects of one main dichotomy.


REALLY look at it. All you are saying is their are opposites and they are called "group order" and then you pick one aspect of each dichotomy and call them "symmetry order".

I hoping you've not just wasted half an hour of my time ...
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Re: Musings about "intelligence"

Postby DragonFly on January 9th, 2013, 5:11 pm 

Grouping order is of like distinct, discrete things, the extreme example of which is the separate matter/anti-matter of the beginning of time’s Alpha start (an intermediate case would be a galaxy or a solar system), whereas symmetry order is everything all mashed and blended together, such as (at extreme) at time’s Omega end (all decayed and mixed).

Extroversion, sensing, thinking, and judging (orderliness) pertain to grouping order, while introversion, intuition, feeling, and perceiving (spontaneity) pertain to symmetry order (as they are a holistic blend as all together seemingly without parts).
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Re: Musings about "intelligence"

Postby BadgerJelly on January 10th, 2013, 12:45 am 

Thank you. We need practice communicating! :P

This is called entropy. Why are you using these strangely named concepts? Why not just say low and high entropy?

Extroversion, sensing, thinking, and judging (orderliness) pertain to grouping order, while introversion, intuition, feeling, and perceiving (spontaneity) pertain to symmetry order (as they are a holistic blend as all together seemingly without parts).


If you are trying to relate entropy to psychology then I can see where this is trying to go.

In this thread I am trying to use an abstracted term of "intelligence" in reference to the transfer of information so entropy can be related to this and is certainly within my thinking in relation to the expansion/diversification of this information.

In this sense the more numerous the ways we have to communicate an idea the higher the entropy ... like I have stated I have no idea where this goes and what it means its just a curious thought that is quite chaotic that is why I was trying to break it down to simpler systems such as a rock, a drop of water or an atom. From there I think we can then have a better idea about many things.

Funnily enough I think both my and your thinking is often a little too high in reference to entropy. We are grasping at chaos and our ignorance is expanding. I like to try and oscillate between being utterly ignorant and unknowing (disbelief) and complete certainty (belief). That is my psychological tilt on this anyway and it generally makes me happy and curious ... sometimes I fear maybe a little TOO curious.

What I feel is important in this sense is communication. Communication is to me real "intelligence". The vastness of the term communication though is astounding in our short period of existence on Earth.

I am really trying to understand and communicate with you and you are trying to understand and communicate with me so I believe we're doing something "correct".

Any frustrations I express are frustrations with my ability to communicate. Not understanding someone or something is a fearful place to be in and frustration grows when you cannot see how to bridge the gap and grasp at a way to communicate and understand.

The frustrating parts of life more or less turn out to be the most exciting, fun and enlightening ... and eventually even more complex and intriguing! :)

Note: I have no idea. I do not want one until I have destroyed the ones I do have in order to see new ways of communicating. This is how I operate and I have had much delight in this art of surrender and attack of myself ... sometimes it spills over when I express myself which can be counter productive.
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Re: Musings about "intelligence"

Postby DragonFly on January 10th, 2013, 12:09 pm 

‘Intelligence’ is a method to obtain the data about a situation often used to make future, thus also the term ‘Intelligence Services’. Sensing (but applying intuition, too), experience, association, thinking (but feeling it out, too), ordering (but open to unordered perception) are ways that we operate on it. The details are great to consider (left brain) but so is the holistic way (right brain) of still seeing a situation at large regardless of the twists and turns, and changing forms and shapes. It is kind of ‘remembering the future’.

It’s not really order vs disorder, as entropy, but groupings vs an overall blend.
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Re: Musings about "intelligence"

Postby BadgerJelly on January 10th, 2013, 1:20 pm 

This Horizon two part special is very nice:

BBC Horizon Order And Disorder With Jim AI.Khalili EP01
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAIwBnDc7o0

BBC Horizon Order And Disorder With Jim AI.Khalili- Information - EP02
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmp29iFir7k


They may be a little long and not particularly in depth but they give a great picture of our journey of understanding. Just a damn shame they didn't talk about qubits.
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