A new way to use energy

Discussions related to engineering and its applications. From civil and mechanical to aeronautic and robotics, etc.

A new way to use energy

Postby turbine on July 9th, 2006, 10:40 am 

I have invented a new type of turbine (external combustion engine). This device has many advantages over existing technology. One of which is efficiency. This turbine can convert total heat content to work (Enthalpy). This means if a working fluid like steam enters the turbine it will produce work by its potential state as a vapor but also as the vapor condenses the turbine will absorb and transfer the latent heat of vaporization to work as well.

I realize there are condensing turbines now. It is my understanding that they can not convert latent heat energy and only about 8% of the working fluid as a vapor will condense in the turbine (Thermodynamics and Heat Power-Seventh Addition Prentice Hall:2004).

Why is this important? Efficiencies of Heat engines are currently based on Carnot's law (Temp R Output/Temp R Input) which limits the efficiency to about 55%, which is to say that we can only produce output power at a rate of about half of the energy we put into an engine. The only engines currently capable of this type of efficiency are very expensive multiple effect steam turbines. If there was a way to harness the latent heat energy of the working fluid we could calculate efficiency based on the difference in heat content (Enthalpy Output/Enthalpy Input). For non-condensing engines nothing would change; however, in a condensing engine we could see a dramatic difference.

For a new turbine to be successful it will need more than just efficiency. Torque, complexity and life cycle cost are all important as well. I believe that my turbine can preform well in all of the categories required for success. My work to this point has brought me to the limits of my capabilities in this field.

I need help from professionals in this field that would be interested in working on a project of this nature. I would hope that we could validate my findings. I realize that this may seem unconventional, that the inventor of this technology would come from outside the field of study. If I am correct the benefits of this device would put a solar powered turbine in every ones houses and cars (OK possibly a hybrid). If I am incorrect, we can continue integrating solar power into the grid, and I will go on my way.

I appreciate every ones time and would gladly accept comments.


Postby turbine on October 21st, 2006, 9:13 am 

I have had some set backs. I was contracting a company to make a turbine from Urethane. This fell through, I thought I was dealing with the owner, when I was really dealing with an employee trying to make money on the side. I have since bought a mini lathe mill combo and have started making a testable proto-type myself. You know what they say "If you want something done right, you have to do it yourself." I have been working with a small engineering company in Portugal on a joint EU US effort to test the turbine in a solar organic rankin cycle. This would be a battery less system with energy stored in the form of high pressure liquid refrigerant.

Any comments are welcome.

Postby Cyndi Loo on October 21st, 2006, 11:59 am 

Congratulations Turbine. You are making progress.
Cyndi Loo

Postby Washu_chan on January 10th, 2007, 3:06 pm 

I believe this is called a Rankine cycle turbine there has been some proposals on using an ammonia driven rakines turbine with solar thermo collectors,on conventional powerplants to make use of waste heat, and even fit them to large vehicles like buses.
Some powerplant turbines now use a version of it in dual stage turbines but still using steam as the working gas/fluid so they do not fully utilize the advantages it can offer.
On a related note you would not be able to directly power a car via solar power as the collectors would be too heavy and un aerodynamic for a practical car but you could charge a battery pack or produce hydrogen which could be stored in metal hydrate.
Or lastly maybe use a small version of the turbine to make use of heat from the engine coolant to get a few more percent efficiency from the engine which is usually only around 25% efficient if you could recover just 5% of the energy normally lost as heat and use it to charge a battery you could improve the milage by 20%.

Postby turbine on February 11th, 2007, 10:27 am 

Well Thank you for your reply. I am glad to see there is interest. Yes ammonia has been used in turbines to generate power, that is were the Organic in Organic Rankine Cycle comes from. Other refrigerants and pentane have also been used.

I still believe this can be done in a car. It will not be the primary use of the device; however, that does not mean it can not be used. Refrigerants have a much lower boiling point that water. This allows us to produce super heated vapor with non consentrating solar collectors. I agree with you, with current technology it is not possible. The solar collector would have to be to large and the turbine would weight to much.

The power to weight ratio of my turbine is much better than existing turbines. The efficiency is projected to be much better. I realize that many will say that is not possible. Even though the fluid flow can be plotted on the pressure enthalpy chart like conventional Rankine, it is not truly a Rankine cycle.

I am currently working with a large company from India to produce a 10kw gen set. The test data will be used to produce a 2 mega watt model. I will of course need lots of engineering help to build the large model, any one interested?

I guess its been a while

Postby turbine on July 28th, 2007, 9:56 pm 

Well the company from India fell through, or at least I did not trust them enough to give any info. There have been many companies and interested investors that did not pan out. The good news is that I am closer to a contract then ever before.

First I had to pass the muster, and convince two top engineers of the technology. This made me a little nervous they had twenty years experience in the field of my turbine technology. This went really well they understood what I was doing. They said that I had jumped ahead of their technology by about four years. Since then, we have been talking the finer points of the agreement. I also got my best turbine running to this point and have had pretty good results (let just say real good for $300 in my basement).

What does all this mean? Well it is my fondest hope that the way we generate and use power will change. First by implementing the technology into existing and new power plants. Big energy savings without change to infrastructure. Then the large scale implementation of non-concentrating solar, geothermal, and other alternative power systems.

One part of the agreement will be putting me in the next world solar challenge with an ORC solar powered car. How much fun would that be?

Postby turbine on September 9th, 2007, 8:57 pm 

I guess that I was a little to optimistic, on the last report. The company I was hoping would do testing and sign contracts etc. Well after reviewing the turbine for two weeks decided not to test it. I sent them a working turbine they reviewed it and decided not to test. All they had to do was plug the thing in and verify results, but know that did not happen. Back to the drawing board. Anyone have a source of high pressure steam that I can test this thing on. Then I can prove its ability to condense vapors to liquids while converting energy to power? There reasoning was extremely flawed, but because I am not an engineer my input was not only not required but did not hold water.

Oh well, if you are going to do something different, expect that most people are not going to understand and try to convince you to give it up. Why they take it upon them selves to convince a person not to continue is beyond me. I just wanted someone to verify the results I already achieved.

On a daily basis I try to make systems work that are designed by engineers. Sometimes these systems are so poorly designed they can not function, I must then detail the problems and explain why the system can not function. This is usually because of an extreme lack of understanding of how these systems work, yet I do not have the knowledge to input upon my own turbine design.

Strange world we live in.

Postby Sparky on September 9th, 2007, 9:28 pm 

Can you explain how your turbine is different from already available turbines? How is it solar powered?

Turbines are VERY mature both in theory and practice. It's obviously going to take a lot of convincing for a lay person to make even a tiny contribution.

Postby turbine on September 11th, 2007, 7:58 am 

My turbine does not convert pressure, I realize that this does not make sense but this is a major difference in now the turbine works. This is one reason that it is unaffected by condensing vapors, in fact as the vapors condense it will (should, untested) improve the power output. I think you will agree that this is very different than convectional technology. The fluid leaving the turbine should be sub cooled (below saturation).

Solar Organic Rankin Cycle will power the turbine just fine. The temperature required is about 275 F in a non concentrating solar collector (vacuum tube or such), and I realize that this is at the high end for such devices, NH3 will reach critical pressure 1600 Pisa. Of course temperature is one thing and absorbing the BTU's required is the goal. The solar boiler should be sized large enough to allow for the condensing and storage of high pressure ammonia. This could be run through the turbine in periods of low light. This would work well with fossil fuels as well, due to the low boiler temp. required a hybrid system would be very efficient.

Current testing on high pressure water, the turbine has achieved 56 to 1 pressure drop through the device. 1000 Pisa to 15 Pisa. I realize this may not make sense because the turbine does not convert pressure, but it still can be measured at each end. 3000 rpm at 1 foot pound of torque and 2 and 1/2 gallons per minute. The torque is a bit of an estimation, due to the crude nature of my dino.

Have to run now, talk to ya later.

Postby goingtothedogs on September 11th, 2007, 10:49 am 

How about some schematics and test data?

Postby turbine on September 13th, 2007, 6:05 pm 

Sorry I have not sold anything yet, and if I were to discuss the exact workings of the device I would never receive anything for the work and substantial investment I have put into it. My wife and I have been through so much to get this far and we can not give up just yet. I have been thinking that I will stop with the power side of the and start working on the pump compressor side. This may be an easier way to get some funding.

The plan is to operate in reverse and create a condensing pump. I will then create a refrigeration system without a condenser. I believe that I should be able to run a two ton system at about 700 watts including the evap. fan. This is big not as big as the power generation possibilities, however, we get a large savings for each 3 watts we save at home saves, I guess about 1 at the power plant. (just a guess, someone will surely set me straight on that).

Postby PlaymateOfTheApes on December 10th, 2007, 10:57 pm 

I Concur

Postby Removed user on December 11th, 2007, 9:46 am 

Let me interject this:

No legitimate investor will ever put money into a project without first hiring a team to assess the potential capabilities of the product and the feasibility of its being economically produced and marketed. I know this as I once sat on the board of directors of one such investment company.

Of course, it would be unwise to distribute specific technical specifications in an open forum but if you are looking for investors or project partners you should at least explain the general theory behind your specific application. Also, if the device has been shown to work then you should patent it. Once it is patented you can feel more secure in sharing its specifics, as your potential investors can feel more secure that this is not just some “flight of fancy” but a legitimate technological application.
Removed user


Postby turbine on December 15th, 2007, 10:03 am 

I could not agree more. I have a patent pending and a PCT filed. I am not seek investors on this forum. I was hoping to interest someone with an advanced degree to review the turbine and possibly help. It seems that without the backing of people with advanced degrees I lack credibility, as you stated. I do have several engineers on board, but that does not seem to "cut the mustard".

So if you have an advanced degree (in physics, mechanical, something related), will sign a non disclosure agreement and would like to work on an engine that will condense and sub-cool, super-heated vapor as it produces power, contact me with a private and an E-mail address.

Postby Removed user on December 15th, 2007, 1:58 pm 

I am primarily a biologist. The only reason that I know perhaps just enough to make myself useful in this sub-forum is that I picked up an electronics degree a few years back for the fun of it.

I know that we have a particle physicist or two here in the forums but what you seem to need is an expert in thermodynamics and mechanical engineering. If you seriously want to get one of these scientists on board you might be able to contact one through one of the appropriate scientific journals.

The Wiki has the beginnings of a list of journals specific to physics:
Removed user

Postby turbine on December 15th, 2007, 8:21 pm 

I am seeking help at the local U and else where, but thought I would ask. I can not have enough help.


Postby turbine on January 16th, 2008, 7:30 am 

Well its been long row to hoe!
We have been invited to a prominent research facility for a test demonstration. The plan is to run live steam into the turbine. So I have been trying to make this happen before we get there. I have made a small boiler to create the test steam. This is complete with safety relief valve, staged heating, however on the first try I had a clogged nozzle. I realize that a Y strainer would be needed, just not so soon! Well one will be here Friday. This is exciting, to have results verified. I had to overcome a bearing issue as well. Regular bearing speeds are based around the speed of electric motors, so most have top speeds of 3600rpm. Th seal is the limiting factor, labyrinth seals have a much higher speed rating 12000 rpm. Just thought that would be useful to someone.


Postby turbine on January 19th, 2008, 8:48 pm 

Well I finally got some thermal testing. I do not have a solid mass flow rate ( I collected about 1 ounce a minute, that did not flash in the 18 degree outside temp.) and I had to make my own boiler but here goes. 373 F in steam, 25 psig-120 F out 1 psig out 3200 rpm 8 ounce feet of torque. By Carnot's Law this is only about 30% efficient, but I fee the thermodynamic properties of the water are to different then the steam to be used. Not to bad for a $400 turbine and a homemade boiler. Efficiency will increase as the inlet temp and pressure increase.


Postby turbine on March 17th, 2008, 7:32 am 

well it took a lot longer then I thought it would. We had our first investment seminar on Saturday. The night before I put the turbine together and I must have finally gotten everything alinged properly. We hit 30000rpm! This was scary fast, there was a little vibration, but not bad considering it has never been balanced or aligned with anything but my eyeball. Inlet pressure was 150 psig discharge less then 1 psig, inlet temp somewhere around 400F (could not find my high temp thermometer) outlet temp 106F. I should say this was running on steam and yes it was condensing 100% of the steam to water and sub cooling it another 106F inside the turbine with no damage.

The presentation went very well, I kept the rpm down to 15000, for safety. We really should have some serious funding in the next couple of weeks. I can't wait to start some real research.

I think we will make a molten salt boiler to test a larger turbine on steam. Heat the salt and use the salt to heat the water/steam.

web site

Postby turbine on March 20th, 2008, 5:37 pm 

i realize it does not say how the technology works but it is a start.

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