The link between melancholy and greatness

[Solomon]

1) Goethe: "I will say nothing against the course of my existence. But at bottom it has been nothing but pain and burden, and I can affirm that during the whole of my 75 years, I have not had four weeks of genuine well-being. It is but the perpetual rolling of a rock that must be raised again forever."

2) Martin Luther: "I am utterly weary of life. I pray the Lord will come forthwith and carry me hence. Let Him come, above all, with His last Judgment; I will stretch out my neck, the thunder will burst forth, and I shall be at rest."

3) Tolstoy: "I felt that something had broken within me on which my life had always rested, that I had nothing left to hold on to, that morally my life had stopped. An invisible force impelled me to get rid of my existence, in one way or another. It cannot be said that I wished to kill myself, for the force which drew me away from life was fuller, more powerful, more general than any mere desire. It was a force like my old aspiration to live, only it impelled me in the opposite direction. It was an aspiration of my whole being to get out of life."

4)C.S. Lewis: " The materialist's universe had an enormous attraction that death ended all, and if ever finite disasters proved greater than one wished to bear, suicide would always be possible."

These quotes were to just set the stage; I am not trying to make a necessary connection. But there does seem to be an underlying current of melancholy, sadness, depression, a sense of loneliness, that runs along the minds of geniuses at various stages of development in their lives. What is the connection between this "existential despair" and greatness? Why have some of our greatest novelists, poets, philosophers been at times obsessed with death and feelings of nihilism? Please, I would like to hear your opinion.

[Removed user]

Yep.

[Phalcon]

Possibly thinking too much has negative psychological and even physiological implications. In particular thinking deeply and critically about life may lead to frequent cognitive dissonance and other depressing mind states.

[Removed user]

Be careful when seeking enlightenment, as you may actually attain it. Once you see clearly enough to realize that your whole world has been based upon nothing more than assumption then you are faced with the necessity of finding life’s meaning for yourself, which is a daunting task indeed. The smartest ones are probably those who simply embrace hedonism, figuring that if nothing has meaning and true happiness cannot be obtained, then pleasure is an adequate substitute.

[Phalcon]

I wouldn't say that Goethe, Luther and Tolstoy were not smart. If embracing something such as hedonism was so simple and desirable, then reembracing the other former blissful assumptions would be an equally adequate possibility. But it is not so easy to admit that your life's project, the quest for enlightenment in this case, was a waste of time.

[raumgehll]

Or maybe, as writers/thinkers/whatevers, they -wrote- about their melancholy, hence bringing it to your knowledge. That doesn't mean an equal portion of individuals in every other human "groups" feel so throughout their life, you just don't necessarily hear them moan about it...

[Removed user]

I wouldn't say that Goethe, Luther and Tolstoy were not smart.

Sometimes intelligent and smart are two different things.

[erythrophyte]

1) Goethe: "I will say nothing against the course of my existence. But at bottom it has been nothing but pain and burden, and I can affirm that during the whole of my 75 years, I have not had four weeks of genuine well-being. It is but the perpetual rolling of a rock that must be raised again forever."

2) Martin Luther: "I am utterly weary of life. I pray the Lord will come forthwith and carry me hence. Let Him come, above all, with His last Judgment; I will stretch out my neck, the thunder will burst forth, and I shall be at rest."

3) Tolstoy: "I felt that something had broken within me on which my life had always rested, that I had nothing left to hold on to, that morally my life had stopped. An invisible force impelled me to get rid of my existence, in one way or another. It cannot be said that I wished to kill myself, for the force which drew me away from life was fuller, more powerful, more general than any mere desire. It was a force like my old aspiration to live, only it impelled me in the opposite direction. It was an aspiration of my whole being to get out of life."

4)C.S. Lewis: " The materialist's universe had an enormous attraction that death ended all, and if ever finite disasters proved greater than one wished to bear, suicide would always be possible."

For context's sake, the first three quotes come from William James' The Varieties of Religious Experience (Lectures VI & VII) in the same order. For those who would like to read that section of his book as well as the book in its entirety, it is available online: Sacred-Texts

The last quote, by C.S. Lewis, comes from his Surprised by Joy, and is part of a larger quotation:

To such a craven and materialist's universe has the enormous attraction that it offered you limited liabilities. No strictly infinite disaster could overtake you in it. Death ended all. And if ever finite disasters proved greater than one wished to bear, suicide would always be possible. The horror of the Christian universe was that it had no door marked Exit...But, of course, what mattered most of all was my deep-seated hatred of authority, my monstrous individualism, my lawlessness. No word in my vocabulary expressed deeper hatred than the word Interference. But Christianity placed at the center what then seemed to me a transcendental Interferer. If this picture were true then no sort of "treaty with reality" could ever be possible. There was no region even in the innermost depth of one's soul (nay, there least of all) which one could surround with a barbed wire fence and guard with a notice of No Admittance. And that was what I wanted; some area, however small, of which I could say to all other beings, "This is my business and mine only."

[Solomon]

The Varieties of Religious Experience is one of my all time favorite pieces of literature. The Chapter, The Sick Soul, is just a masterpiece in every sense of the word. Personally, I think it is the great minded man's ability to not negotiate with the terms the universe has laid down that can often result in melancholy. It is a difficult thing to drink from the well of death, pain, despair, loneliness, I can see how it can take its toll on a person.

[LouSalome]

If I may, Kay Redfield Jamison and other researchers in the psychology field have argued that there is indeed a link between creativity and bipolar illness (which includes depressive mood as well as elation). However, there are others in the field of abnormal psychology who say that indeed this is not the case and that these things are coincidences or overemphasized.

Throughout history, there seems to be a link between genius and mental illness. Napoleon had epilepsy, which does affect the brain. Van Gogh was said to have bipolar illness (granted, you can't diagnose it if you weren't there). Beethoven was often reputed to have a mental illness as well. Hemmingway had bipolar illness. Nietszche was said to have syphillis, which, if untreated, will cause certain psychological phenomena, such as hallucinations and eventual dementia.

However, there are other stories as well. A type, the Byronic hero, was created in the nineteenth century. This type, literary and fashionable, resonated with the biographers at the time. Edgar Allan Poe was painted by his contemporary as a deranged and highly depressed man who was terribly frightening. He wrote these things so that he could sell the biography of the poor man after he died. He wasn't nearly as interesting.

A part of me (the student of psychology) thinks that much of the genius legend is dependent on the Byronic myth. However, as a student of philosophy and an advocate for those with mental illnesses, I like the idea of there being a connection with these two.

I am not sure if the depth/breadth of thinking is different for a person with mental illness and if it compensates for the pain of the depression, etc. I myself am a person who has a mental illness, and I'd offer myself up as an experiment, but I haven't reached the extreme of genius yet.

[Guy#11]

That is a very interesting question. I'm probably going to be thinking about it for a long time. One thing I could think of would be Descartes. His epistemological approach began with forgetting everything he knew and started with one thing he knows certainly without use of his senses. Which I think is: "I think therefore I am." It seems that this would imply some level of singularity that could cause feelings of loneliness. I think God was the next thing he claimed to know, or at least some supreme being he later discredits as anyone other than God.

I know this is only a particular approach to the question that requires a general answer. But if most of these thinkers had to forget everything they know, or at some point in their life, go into a field of greatness without any guidance, if would be understandable if they feel slightly lonely or seem crazy to some point. They had to take a giant step into darkness that could possibly have led them to be entirely incorrect in all their studies. Which for them is all they have as philosophers.

[Bonpa]

I am really glad to read those quotes Solomon. It's actually refreshing to hear that others struggle with life too; we are not alone in that. There really is no
way out but to meet life gently one on one and not fight with it too much. This I have learned.

[xZARATHUSTRA]

maybe they were perfectionists tortured by their sense of imperfection.if the gods existed,how could we bare not to be gods.nietzsche.

[walkntune]

To increase in knowledge is to increase in sorrow. Ignorance is bliss!

[Musaeus]

where but to think is to be full of sorrow and leaden-eyed despair........... Keats

I can suck melancholy from an occasion like a .... sucks eggs [check] .... Shakespeare



I think men of genius are subject to this partly because all sensitive people are, but partly also because writers and thinkers are engaged in very mind-wearying tasks all the time, and it is almost impossible to escape them

[Marshall]

I can suck melancholy from an occasion like a .... sucks eggs [check] .... Shakespeare

I could be wrong but I remember that as from *As You Like It*

Yes. Act 2 scene 5. Jacques is an eccentric gentleman whom the others mock because of his perverse air of melancholy, which seems "studied" and put on for show. After a coup which ousted their leader, a bunch of noblemen are living in exile in the forest. All but Jacques try cheerfully to endure hardship and make the best of it. By contrast, Jacques is constantly pointing out the downside and complaining. It looks somewhat like an exaggerated pose, he exercises his wit and amuses the others that way. In this scene Amiens is helping to entertain the exiles with a song. He stops singing and:

JAQUES
More, more, I prithee, more.

AMIENS
It will make you melancholy, Monsieur Jaques.

JAQUES
I thank it. More, I prithee, more. I can suck melancholy out of a song as a weasel sucks eggs. More, I prithee, more.

AMIENS
My voice is ragged. I know I cannot please you.

JAQUES
I do not desire you to please me. I do desire you to sing.

[reconsiderate]

I don't think the melancholy of great philosophers is so much related to the strength of their minds as it is that both philosophical strength as well as melancholy are the product of having a lifestyle relatively free of burden. Even very intelligent people gain a sense of deep satisfaction from labor that is challenging either in terms of physical demand, patience required, etc. Physically demanding labor is the most satisfying, imo, because it allows all bodily energy to be expressed to the point of exhaustion. The problem is that smart people can usually figure out ways to maximize efficiency thereby minimizing labor. This is an evolving problem in (post)modern economies as standardization allows the advances created by a handful of geniuses to reduce the demand for physical labor for everyone else. For a while, I thought the solution was to promote industries such as service-work that allow people to "waste" their physical exertion on relatively ephemeral production, but I have grown to believe that superfluous services only increase the lethargy of consumers, which further increases the potential for melancholy due to lack of struggle. But how to bring struggle back to a level that gives people sufficient means to express physical energy without enslaving them to dependence on their own products?

[CanadysPeak]

Perhaps most men are sometimes melancholy, sometimes self-obsessed, but not afforded the opportunity to glory in it, to display their sadness as though a badge of greatness. Were one to go down to the mill, or up to the construction site, tomorrow and tell the others, "I am woefully distressed and fearful this morn", one would be apt to get locked in the Porta-John.

[reconsiderate]

Perhaps most men are sometimes melancholy, sometimes self-obsessed, but not afforded the opportunity to glory in it, to display their sadness as though a badge of greatness. Were one to go down to the mill, or up to the construction site, tomorrow and tell the others, "I am woefully distressed and fearful this morn", one would be apt to get locked in the Porta-John.

Why should woe be a "badge of greatness?" No one would envy you for it, would they? Maybe they might find you brave or emancipated to express it openly, and wish to overcome their own repressed expression. But certainly anyone would rather be happy than sad, unless they have reached the limits of marginal utility for happiness, which I think is not uncommon among very privileged people. That is the reason I think teenagers get interested in negativity and destructive culture; i.e. because they've overdosed on familial love, youthful health and privilege, etc. to the point they really can't do anything except take it for granted. So it's no wonder they go searching for pain and misery to contrast with their pure bliss and render it meaningful as such.

[Louis_B]

As a poet and clinical depressive i may be able to help here. When I have been at my very worst, I have ended up in an institution on 15 minute suicide watch. However, this utter blackness has produced states of almost manic creativity centred on the worth of life, its fickleness, love, pain and a whole host of unwanted and often very dark thoughts. Poets in particular are said to thrive on misery and poverty, and although I wouldn't call it thriving, creatively its a gold-seam. I am not expected to be recognised as a great poet until I'm dead - Its traditional! For now, to be published is almost an embarrasment, or would be if it wasn't for my ego! To face death and feeling that silvery string of mortality being stretched and stretched is actually quite life-affirming in retrospect. One day I hope to be called great, but I won't be here to recieve the accolades!! Ah; Tis the poet's lot!

[reconsiderate]

As a poet and clinical depressive i may be able to help here. When I have been at my very worst, I have ended up in an institution on 15 minute suicide watch. However, this utter blackness has produced states of almost manic creativity centred on the worth of life, its fickleness, love, pain and a whole host of unwanted and often very dark thoughts. Poets in particular are said to thrive on misery and poverty, and although I wouldn't call it thriving, creatively its a gold-seam. I am not expected to be recognised as a great poet until I'm dead - Its traditional! For now, to be published is almost an embarrasment, or would be if it wasn't for my ego! To face death and feeling that silvery string of mortality being stretched and stretched is actually quite life-affirming in retrospect. One day I hope to be called great, but I won't be here to recieve the accolades!! Ah; Tis the poet's lot!

Such poetic tragedy! Is the drama worth your life? Do you think your loved ones would appreciate your sacrifice of life for art? Hint: art and poetry are all 100% meaningless vis-a-vis human life. The only thing worth more than human life is the resistance to ideologies that commodify it.

[Musaeus]

Don't do it Louis...... move away from the vicinity of the Black Isle instead, it may help.

Physically demanding labor is the most satisfying, imo, because it allows all bodily energy to be expressed to the point of exhaustion.

Intelligent people need exercise and will generally feel better for it, but subject an intelligent man to a labouring job and he will feel more melancholy than ever after a few days. However, it would make him enjoy his mental work a good deal more for a while.

I could be wrong but I remember that as from *As You Like It*

thanks Marshall... of course .. I love the introduction of a 'weasel' into that line, and also its reference to music, which I think is surely the most powerful medium for the expression of simple emotions such as sadness.

Has anyone read that wonderful book The Anatomy of Melancholy by Richard Burton?

[reconsiderate]

Intelligent people need exercise and will generally feel better for it, but subject an intelligent man to a labouring job and he will feel more melancholy than ever after a few days. However, it would make him enjoy his mental work a good deal more for a while.

I think you're mistaking laziness for boredom. And I think you're confusing mindless obedient labor with labor that you have creative input into and a stake in. I bet that if a physicist wanted to build a particle accelerator to test her theories, she would eagerly perform the labor of assembling it herself. Her physical exhaustion from the labor would be a welcome means of channeling her excitement generated by her mind for her theories.

This is the ideal for of labor, imo: i.e. laboring whole-heartedly with your full bodily energy toward achieving a goal you are excited about. No amount of theoretical philosophizing in a chair can compare, although an active mind in a chair is admittedly better than a suppressed mind in a customer service function where you don't even believe in the validity of the service you are providing.

[madnietzschean]

the myriad of imperfections,limitations,uncertainties,contradictions,people,and death.In my opinion, these are part of causes for the ambivalence of melancholy and greatness,thus the attraction and repulsion for life.