Beauty

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Re: Beauty

Postby BadgerJelly on March 27th, 2019, 2:52 am 

Nick_A » March 27th, 2019, 12:03 pm wrote:
BadgerJelly » March 26th, 2019, 10:55 pm wrote:I guess you’re incapable of answering the question then? Shock me and say “yes” or “no” (with nuances if need be.)


You are right; I cannot answer the question yes or no. A partial truth is neither yes or no.


And nuance? Do ou understand why people here may find it frustrating when they are genuinely trying to communicate and offer no clarity to questions posed?

I can actually figure out what you mean in part and further clarity will only come, so it seems, in dislogue form.

From what I can see you’ve answered “no” as you’ve outlined some adherance to Plato’s philosophy as mysticism rather than as rational? I asked plain and simpy if you were referring to “beauty” as “objective” in the sense that we all appreciate “beauty”. It was a very simple question and one that you are capable of answering with, at the very least, as inclination more toward a “yes” than a “no” or vice versa.

You can answer both “yes” and “no” if you wish in the form “Yes, in the case ...” and/or “No, in the case ...”

I don’t think I’m asking too much here. I believe I am being patient and willing. I won’t persist though if you cannot, or will not, look for some common ground from which to establish a menaingful discussion about “beauty” and all the possible connotations of the term; not to mention the proble of the term embedded into language itself and the issue of “language”.
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Re: Beauty

Postby Nick_A on March 27th, 2019, 1:04 pm 

BJ

From what I can see you’ve answered “no” as you’ve outlined some adherance to Plato’s philosophy as mysticism rather than as rational? I asked plain and simpy if you were referring to “beauty” as “objective” in the sense that we all appreciate “beauty”. It was a very simple question and one that you are capable of answering with, at the very least, as inclination more toward a “yes” than a “no” or vice versa.

I thought I had answered it. I even posted “Ladder of Love” to show how subjective beauty is experienced by the senses but objective beauty as a form can only be experienced through illumination, revelation, intuition, or whatever word used to define a higher form of intellect.

The problem is that those limiting themselves to the defense of one level of reality and the domain of the senses are by definition closed to levels of reality and Diotima’s ladder of love. Plotinus’ description of the involutionary descent from the ONE into Nous, into World Soul, and into Soul for example is just metaphysical speculation not to be taken seriously

So for you and I to discuss beauty from the perspective of Diotima’s ladder of love, we would have to agree on which level of the ladder we were discussing:

https://www.thoughtco.com/platos-ladder-of-love-2670661

Diotima spells out the stages in this ascent in terms of what sort of beautiful thing the lover desires and is drawn toward.
1. A particular beautiful body. This is the starting point, when love, which by definition is a desire for something we don’t have, is first aroused by the sight of individual beauty.
2. All beautiful bodies. According to standard Platonic doctrine, all beautiful bodies share something in common, something the lover eventually comes to recognize. When he does recognize this, he moves beyond a passion for any particular body.
3. Beautiful souls. Next, the lover comes to realize that spiritual and moral beauty matters much more than physical beauty. So he will now yearn for the sort of interaction with noble characters that will help him become a better person.
4. Beautiful laws and institutions. These are created by good people (beautiful souls) and are the conditions which foster moral beauty.
5. The beauty of knowledge. The lover turns his attention to all kinds of knowledge, but particularly, in the end to philosophical understanding. (Although the reason for this turn isn’t stated, it is presumably because philosophical wisdom is what underpins good laws and institutions.)
6. Beauty itself–that is, the Form of the Beautiful. This is described as “an everlasting loveliness which neither comes nor goes, which neither flowers nor fades.” It is the very essence of beauty, “subsisting of itself and by itself in an eternal oneness.” And every particular beautiful thing is beautiful because of its connection to this Form. The lover who has ascended the ladder apprehends the Form of Beauty in a kind of vision or revelation, not through words or in the way that other sorts of more ordinary knowledge are known.
Diotima tells Socrates that if he ever reached the highest rung on the ladder and contemplated the Form of Beauty, he would never again be seduced by the physical attractions of beautiful youths. Nothing could make life more worth living than enjoying this sort of vision. Because the Form of Beauty is perfect, it will inspire perfect virtue in those who contemplate it.
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