RJG » August 18th, 2017, 10:33 pm wrote:Thinker, you got so hung up on the word "indoctrinated" that you forgot to answer my simple question. Also, I read your proof, and applaud the effort and energy you put into it. But unfortunately it is not as "rock solid" as you think. You start with a flawed definition, which invalidates the entire 17 page proof.thinker4life wrote:6. Free will is defined as:
a. Nondeterminism - That multiple potential outcomes are possible when a person makes a decision
b. A being’s conscious effort to make one of them more likely has a statistical impact on the likely outcome of which possibility the being experiences. In layman’s terms, if you choose to try to do something, it's more likely to happen.
1. “Non-determinism” only makes free-will impossible! One can’t choose, or ‘cause’ anything if this anything can be one of multiple (or random) outcomes. I choose X, but because of non-determinism, Y happens. Causing, or "willing" (or determining) anything cannot happen non-deterministically!
2. What is this “conscious effort”? Can one actually “consciously do” anything? Or is one just conscious of their doing/effort?
"Non-deterministically choosing" is not logically possible.
"Consciously doing" is not logically possible.
Let me show explicitly that I've answered your questions by laying out title headings for each question I've answered... sorry if I wasn't clear before:
NON-DETERMINISM (the answer to your first question)
Non-determinism is what I've proven, if you take the time to read and understand the proof, and it lays the groundwork for why free will is possible. If there's a part of the logical proof that you don't understand or that you think is logically flawed, I'd encourage you to put a comment in about what you disagree with.
To clarify what seems to be confusing you: Non-determinism does not mean there is no cause and effect. Nobody is claiming there is no such thing as cause and effect. There is, and hopefully we can all agree on that.
This is confusing other people on this forum too, which I find fascinating. Non-determinism means simply that cause and effect are not 100% predictable, not that there is no cause and effect. If you consider that free will is a non-deterministic cause and effect, as I've defined it, it's 100% compatible with free will. Its not compatible with some of the traditional philosophical definitions of free will, which I reject. I've proposed my own for a reason, prior definitions like Compatibilist "free will" etc. are flawed and I agree with you they don't exist. My definition of free will is all I've proven.
CONSCIOUS EFFORT
Also as for "conscious effort" let me define it as bare bones a definition as I can. By conscious effort all I mean is that there is a concept of a "sentient being" which makes "non-deterministic decisions" which have an impact on the probabilistic outcome of a situation in the world. This means that we, who perceive ourselves to be sentient beings (I hope we all perceive ourselves to be sentient beings, if you don't perceive yourself as a sentient being, perhaps you're not and I am), actually make non-deterministic decisions to impact the probabilistic outcome of the reality we perceive.
Just to share with you the dictionary definition of conscious, as its compatible with mine above, from dictionary.com, is "aware of one's own existence, sensations, thoughts, surroundings, etc."
So conscious effort implies two things - One, self awareness that you are a sentient being, and two, that there is a possibility (which I have proven is the most likely reason for the evidence I show in my proof) that you make decisions which probabilistically impact the future you experience.
Does this clarify the concepts for you and answer your questions, without antagonizing you?