RJG » August 15th, 2017, 9:14 am wrote:thinker4life wrote:…the universe is not deterministic, leaving open the possibility for free will and/or randomness to determine the future.
How can ANYTHING in a “non-deterministic” universe “
determine” anything?
The "randomness" in a "non-deterministic" universe
kills any possibility of free-will. Free-will cannot ‘will’ (or
determine) anything in a "non-deterministic" universe. If I choose X, but Y happens, then where is the free-will? ...what is it that I am determining (or 'willing')?
Free-will cannot exist in a deterministic universe, nor a non-deterministic universe. Therefore free-will does not exist. It is nothing.
The presence of cause and effect does not necessitate that cause and effect are deterministic. A non-deterministic world is not a world without cause and effect... There very much is still cause and effect in this world. The difference between non-determinism and determinism is that determinism says that all causes are pre-calculable. This is what I have clearly disproved. Even the ultimate incarnation of the laws of physics themselves as the ultimate knowledge base of the universe can't deterministically calculate the future at the next moment in time t + delta t. I recommend reading my paper on free will and learning about Godel's incompleteness theorem. It will give you a more comprehensive view of the limitations of the laws of physics and knowledge bases in general (of which the laws of physics are one, as shown by my proof).
You seem to be suffering from some sort of frustration or confusion at the introduction of a concept that occurs very naturally for most people, and which I have logically proven quite convincingly. If you want to try to disprove free will, try disproving part of my paper which outlines the reasons for its existence quite clearly, rather than just stating your right in caps, which is not very convincing.
Also if you were to understand the paper, you would understand that randomness and free will are both possible explanations for the non-deterministic universe we live in. Free will is a much better explanation for the "decisions" we make. Randomness could very well be part of the equation, but I haven't proven anything about its existence. Maybe I will some day, but I haven't yet. My suspicion is it plays some role in the universe as well.
As for "if I choose x, by Y happens, where is free will," I recommend you read my definition of free will. Nobody on earth claims that if you choose x by free will, therefore x happens. Free will is the concept that what you will to happen becomes *probabalistically more likely*. For example, you could try to punch me for saying free will exists... but I could just as easily block your punch and punch you back. Just because you were not successful in punching me doesn't mean you don't have free will -- you used your free will to try to punch me and I used my free will to block it and punch you back. Free will only impacts probabalistically likely outcomes. Nature and nurture determine the probability clouds within which we all must make choices. But free will does exist, and is influential, and can change much more than you seem to believe is possible.
We may be quibbling on the definition of determinism... My point in calling the world non-deterministic is to say that given the state of the universe at time t, the laws of physics alone (without free will being considered) can't determine the state of the universe at the next moment in time. I call this non-determinism. By the strict definition of determinism in the dictionary, which is "the doctrine that all events, including human choices and decisions, have sufficient causes." one could say people have free will and the world is deterministic. But I think that violates the normal way people think about determinism. If you want to use the strict definition of determinism, you're right, there are sufficient causes for everything. Its just that some of those causes are the result of sentient being's independent decisions and are the result of their decisions, which are completely unpredictable by anything, including absolute knowledge of (or even the actual operation of) the laws of physics themselves. Nothing can predict what I will do next.
We may be able to predict what you do next, because you don't believe in free will, if you do whatever comes most naturally to you and we calculate your highest probability outcome in any situation, but you can never predict what I will do next.
If we're quibbling over the definition of determinism, let's move past that, and focus on the definition of free will that I laid out, I think its more interesting.