I tried to tell you about this for years...

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I tried to tell you about this for years...

Postby ronjanec on February 18th, 2019, 7:31 pm 

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Re: I tried to tell you about this for years...

Postby TheVat on February 18th, 2019, 10:04 pm 

Probably not a matter of belief so much as a matter of opinion on what one perceives as straight news reportage and what is a column or editorial. If the president, for example, is simply reported as saying that SNL should be subject to "retribution," for poking fun at him, that's a direct quote and I see everyone from Fox News to The Guardian reported it. Some analysis appears in some stories, given that threatening free expression is at odds with the first amendment of the US Constitution. Is that bias, or just a journalist doing his/her job? The job of the POTUS includes defending the Constitution - it's included in the Oath of Office. What about when a President proposes to violate the Constitutional separation of powers, by seizing money already appropriated by Congress for purposes other than a wall? Report that, calling upon legal scholars, or pretend it's cool?

What about reporting this fact: no President since Nixon has gone after political satirists or complained when they are mocked? (all Presidents have been mocked by political humorists) Again, is this a pertinent fact we the people should know? Just because a fact doesn't show the President in a favorable light, doesn't mean it's a violation of journalistic impartiality to shine a light on it. Sometimes it's important to know the character and intentions of the leader of a country. With Trump, all you need to do is report accurately what he tweets and speaks, in the past and in the present, fact-check it, and I think the truth of who he is becomes apparent. No spin is needed.

If he's found to have committed fraud with his Inaugural fund, is this something that should be reported? What about defrauding students at Trump University? Report? What about if the President lies in a campaign speech or other public address? Does reporting a lie make the reporter a "Liberal" just because they reported something unfavorable to the President's public image? Again, the task of journalism is to uncover corruption and deceit, it's not a partisan thing.

Where bias is really damaging is when major news outlets omit relevant facts to our ongoing role as citizen watchdogs of government. We're a democracy, not a monarchy, so we need to know an elected official honors democracy, honors his service to the people, and does not seek to enrich himself or his wealthy friends at the expense of the most vulnerable segments of our society. Everyone, regardless of party or ideological coalition, knows that is essential to democracy. That's why the first amendment is of primary importance and our founding fathers placed it first.
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Re: I tried to tell you about this for years...

Postby charon on February 19th, 2019, 12:11 am 

If you really want something juicy try this. Gripping.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/andrew-mcc ... 019-02-17/
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Re: I tried to tell you about this for years...

Postby ronjanec on February 19th, 2019, 12:19 am 

Vat,

There is usually nothing wrong with the MSM reporting something Trump or what anyone else says or does that is considered news: but when a reporter and their employer’s secret mission in life is to make anyone on the right look bad every possible chance they get to promote their particular leftist political ideology(or is very biased in reporting the leftist ideology in a very positive way versus reporting the ideology of the right in a very negative way like she is saying here), then many people all over the world are basically getting only one very biased leftist viewpoint to consider when they see or hear something in the news.

And consider the source here: She is a very well respected journalist even amongst her peers, and also a war correspondent(we are not talking Geraldo Rivera here).
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Re: I tried to tell you about this for years...

Postby Serpent on February 19th, 2019, 1:38 am 

By their acts shall ye judge them...
...not by the opinions of journalists or bloggers or podcasters or twitterers or commentators.

Which "side" am I getting from live video of the president saying what he says the way he's saying it?
Want public condemnation of Trump? Watch Trump.
Want public vindication of Trump? Don't watch Trump.
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Re: I tried to tell you about this for years...

Postby bangstrom on February 19th, 2019, 2:05 am 

Facts have a liberal bias.
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Re: I tried to tell you about this for years...

Postby BadgerJelly on February 19th, 2019, 4:32 am 

Again ... a little confused as to how and why this is at home in “Political Theory” ?

What is the point of the OP other than a proposed “I told you so!”

If the broader question is whether or not the media is more liberal than before in western society - or even globally, rather than confining the political discussion to one country - then I’m not really sure how this can be measured.

I would offer up my same old point. I think it is quite, quite possible that jounralism has not become more leftist, but rather that the occurance of mass global media distribution (due to the inset of the internet and people having ready access to “information” with relative ease) has possibly merely amplified what already existed.

I think our simplistic day-to-day manner of viewing the political sphere as “left” or “right” is becoming less and less useful. A more nuanced approach and analysis will hopefully come about - as it should if we’re to be able to discuss political issues with some degree of level-headedness rather than resorting to ineffective labelling of, or accusing, person A as being either X or Y without any possible middle ground.
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Re: I tried to tell you about this for years...

Postby ronjanec on February 19th, 2019, 10:06 am 

Serpent » Mon Feb 18, 2019 11:38 pm wrote:By their acts shall ye judge them...
...not by the opinions of journalists or bloggers or podcasters or twitterers or commentators.

Which "side" am I getting from live video of the president saying what he says the way he's saying it?
Want public condemnation of Trump? Watch Trump.
Want public vindication of Trump? Don't watch Trump.


Preacher Serpent.

The news media’s right or wrong reporting about President Trump is not the main issue here. A very respectable source in the press corps is saying there is a overwhelming leftist bias in what the press reports worldwide.
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Re: I tried to tell you about this for years...

Postby ronjanec on February 19th, 2019, 10:21 am 

bangstrom » Tue Feb 19, 2019 12:05 am wrote:Facts have a liberal bias.


:)
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Re: I tried to tell you about this for years...

Postby TheVat on February 19th, 2019, 10:30 am 

Respectable character is not proof of being correct in one's assertions. I like Lara Logan, have seen her dispatches many times, but it's possible that she is wrong. As I said above, it's possible that facts simply aren't favorable to many on the far Right. (e.g. global warming, the ten year drastic drop in illegal border crossings in the US, etc.) It's possible that moderate conservative positions are, at this point, more grounded in fact, and that elected officials who are moderates are less likely to be uttering falsehoods. It's possible that honest and sincere small-government Libertarians on the far Right are just not getting elected and so are more lacking in public platforms where their positions could be reported. It's not the media deliberately ignoring them, but rather that they've been marginalized. If it's liars and science deniers and voter suppression scammers who are in office, then the news organizations have a civic duty to report that.
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Re: I tried to tell you about this for years...

Postby charon on February 19th, 2019, 10:49 am 

I don't doubt for one minute that Breibart isn't pursuing a leftist agenda! It's written all over it. Whether that's a Bad Thing is another issue :-)
Last edited by charon on February 19th, 2019, 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I tried to tell you about this for years...

Postby ronjanec on February 19th, 2019, 10:50 am 

BJ,

If you get all or most of your personal news from the BBC, the Guardian, CNN and other MSM sources, there will be no way for you to see or measure any bias in the media because your only sources for this will be almost always promoting a far left ideology to people like yourself.

Check out Breitbart London sometime: they will give you the other side of the story on a number of different issues. (Yes, you will now be dealing with bias from the right instead of the left. There is no escape) :)
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Re: I tried to tell you about this for years...

Postby charon on February 19th, 2019, 10:52 am 

Even Breibart London. Maybe especially Breibart London!

The word 'right' occurs three times on this page alone.

https://www.standard.co.uk/topic/breitbart
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Re: I tried to tell you about this for years...

Postby ronjanec on February 19th, 2019, 11:01 am 

charon » Tue Feb 19, 2019 8:49 am wrote:I don't doubt for one minute that Breibart isn't pursuing a leftist agenda! It's written all over it. Whether that's a Bad Thing is another issue :-)


Yes, Breitbart London is biased to the right as I just mentioned in my response to BadgerJelly Charon.
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Re: I tried to tell you about this for years...

Postby ronjanec on February 19th, 2019, 11:11 am 

TheVat » Tue Feb 19, 2019 8:30 am wrote:Respectable character is not proof of being correct in one's assertions. I like Lara Logan, have seen her dispatches many times, but it's possible that she is wrong. As I said above, it's possible that facts simply aren't favorable to many on the far Right. (e.g. global warming, the ten year drastic drop in illegal border crossings in the US, etc.) It's possible that moderate conservative positions are, at this point, more grounded in fact, and that elected officials who are moderates are less likely to be uttering falsehoods. It's possible that honest and sincere small-government Libertarians on the far Right are just not getting elected and so are more lacking in public platforms where their positions could be reported. It's not the media deliberately ignoring them, but rather that they've been marginalized. If it's liars and science deniers and voter suppression scammers who are in office, then the news organizations have a civic duty to report that.



There are a number of others in the MSM who have also (very grudgingly) admitted to this over the years Vat, so it’s not just Lara Logan possibly being wrong about this type of bias.
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Re: I tried to tell you about this for years...

Postby Serpent on February 19th, 2019, 11:44 am 

I don't assess the actions taken by political figures according to what media personalities (respectable or otherwise) say about one another.
I assess those actions by their effects. If a decision by a president hurts children, or bear cubs, or pensioners, or pelicans, or hotel maids, that's a bad decision and I don't give a flying fig about "the other side".
If a president stands up in front the television cameras, looking demented, rambles off topic, tells lies and attacks his own intelligence agencies, I'm going to think that's a bad head of state, no matter what commentators on the flip-side have to say about him.
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Re: I tried to tell you about this for years...

Postby ronjanec on February 19th, 2019, 12:03 pm 

Serpent » Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:44 am wrote:I don't assess the actions taken by political figures according to what media personalities (respectable or otherwise) say about one another.
I assess those actions by their effects. If a decision by a president hurts children, or bear cubs, or pensioners, or pelicans, or hotel maids, that's a bad decision and I don't give a flying fig about "the other side".
If a president stands up in front the television cameras, looking demented, rambles off topic, tells lies and attacks his own intelligence agencies, I'm going to think that's a bad head of state, no matter what commentators on the flip-side have to say about him.


Here we go again. Why don’t you start your own thread on why President Trump is such a terrible person if you have no real interest in the op?
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Re: I tried to tell you about this for years...

Postby Serpent on February 19th, 2019, 12:14 pm 

Who said anything about President Trump being a terrible person?
I was talking about any president. They should all be judged according to the effect of their official acts and public statements, not the opinion of the media.

You identified the description as Trump.
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Re: I tried to tell you about this for years...

Postby PaulN on February 19th, 2019, 12:27 pm 

But Trump's corruption and self- promotion and mendacity are, alas, germane to the OP in terms of example. If those are real qualities of a national leader, then it's not bias, but ethical DUTY, to report them. It's hardly just the Guardian that's covering Trump lies. Moderate outlets like WSJ and the Post are also exposing those lies. So is APnews online. So is National Review, which is moderate conservative. The Post's leading conservative columnist, Jennifer Rubin, is a strong critic of Trump because of the facts that are exposed about him. Just being a critic of corruption and usurpation of the Constitution doesn't make you "far Left." And LOL that anyone calls BBC far Left!

Ron, what would you do if you're a reporter and discover that Trump's attorney early in his career, and a man considered a strong influence on Trump, was the leading attorney for two of New York's Five (crime) Families? And then learn that Trump had other close ties with the Mob? (these are all facts, carefully checked matters of public record....did you know them when you voted?) Isn't it your job to report that to people who are Trump's constituents? Even if you are a Republican, you have to report relevant facts to our watchdogging the President.
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Re: I tried to tell you about this for years...

Postby ronjanec on February 19th, 2019, 12:33 pm 

Serpent » Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:14 am wrote:Who said anything about President Trump being a terrible person?
I was talking about any president. They should all be judged according to the effect of their official acts and public statements, not the opinion of the media.

You identified the description as Trump.


You’re going to nit pick my responses back to you Serpent? Ok, you did not actually say Trump is a terrible person.
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Re: I tried to tell you about this for years...

Postby Serpent on February 19th, 2019, 12:50 pm 

ronjanec » February 19th, 2019, 11:33 am wrote:
You’re going to nit pick my responses back to you Serpent? Ok, you did not actually say Trump is a terrible person.

If citing actual factual facts is nit-picking, then yes.
On-topic point being that it doesn't in the least matter what people employed in news media think or say about one another. It doesn't matter one iota which editorial spins what news item what way.

What happens happens, regardless. How a political decision affects people matters.
How a politician presents himself, the speeches he makes and tweets he publishes are their own testament.

(BTW The woman didn't come across as eminently respectable in that interview - a bit too much active decolletage, for my taste - but that's no basis on which to judge her work.)
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Re: I tried to tell you about this for years...

Postby ronjanec on February 19th, 2019, 1:00 pm 

PaulN » Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:27 am wrote:But Trump's corruption and self- promotion and mendacity are, alas, germane to the OP in terms of example. If those are real qualities of a national leader, then it's not bias, but ethical DUTY, to report them. It's hardly just the Guardian that's covering Trump lies. Moderate outlets like WSJ and the Post are also exposing those lies. So is APnews online. So is National Review, which is moderate conservative. The Post's leading conservative columnist, Jennifer Rubin, is a strong critic of Trump because of the facts that are exposed about him. Just being a critic of corruption and usurpation of the Constitution doesn't make you "far Left." And LOL that anyone calls BBC far Left!

Ron, what would you do if you're a reporter and discover that Trump's attorney early in his career, and a man considered a strong influence on Trump, was the leading attorney for two of New York's Five (crime) Families? And then learn that Trump had other close ties with the Mob? (these are all facts, carefully checked matters of public record....did you know them when you voted?) Isn't it your job to report that to people who are Trump's constituents? Even if you are a Republican, you have to report relevant facts to our watchdogging the President.


Paul,

I again have no issues with the press accurately reporting what President Trump says or does(Yes, he says many things publicly that makes even very ardent supporters like myself really cringe);

What Logan is saying here goes way beyond how the press talks about any one particular person. She is basically saying that it has become really dangerous how the majority of the press is trying to force their own personal liberal/left bias and ideology down all of our throats, and doing everything in their power to not present the other side of the issues that would maybe make people not agree with their (again) particular ideology.
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Re: I tried to tell you about this for years...

Postby Forest_Dump on February 19th, 2019, 1:25 pm 

One issue will always be where you draw the line between left and right and why there. For example I consider myself to be a social libertarian and fiscal conservative so I am also a liberal and progressive. I find virtually all American media to be relatively right to far right, even CNN. Some of this is because I think planning for the future is important and because I think people are a more important concern than something abstract like "economy". In other words, I think an economy is just a tool to keep people fed, housed, happy, living a long life, etc. So, according to some, since I put society above an economy, I am a "socialist". Strange but I can live with that. So I would guess the real question becomes what is important and why when you draw lines and make the attached value judgements.
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Re: I tried to tell you about this for years...

Postby charon on February 19th, 2019, 1:56 pm 

ronjanec » February 19th, 2019, 4:01 pm wrote:
charon » Tue Feb 19, 2019 8:49 am wrote:I don't doubt for one minute that Breibart isn't pursuing a leftist agenda! It's written all over it. Whether that's a Bad Thing is another issue :-)


Yes, Breitbart London is biased to the right as I just mentioned in my response to BadgerJelly Charon.


No, definitely left. My guess is they met themselves coming back the other way.

It's a joke :-)
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Re: I tried to tell you about this for years...

Postby ronjanec on February 19th, 2019, 2:30 pm 

Serpent » Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:50 am wrote:
ronjanec » February 19th, 2019, 11:33 am wrote:
You’re going to nit pick my responses back to you Serpent? Ok, you did not actually say Trump is a terrible person.

If citing actual factual facts is nit-picking, then yes.
On-topic point being that it doesn't in the least matter what people employed in news media think or say about one another. It doesn't matter one iota which editorial spins what news item what way.

What happens happens, regardless. How a political decision affects people matters.
How a politician presents himself, the speeches he makes and tweets he publishes are their own testament.

(BTW The woman didn't come across as eminently respectable in that interview - a bit too much active decolletage, for my taste - but that's no basis on which to judge her work.)


I’m pretty sure that she is not just saying that there is only a hidden political bias in their political reporting Serpent(which you seem to be primarily/only concerned about in your responses)

And it does matter what one or more journalists say about their chosen field whether positive or negative. Who else would be very credible when talking about this particular issue?
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Re: I tried to tell you about this for years...

Postby ronjanec on February 19th, 2019, 3:03 pm 

Forest_Dump » Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:25 am wrote:One issue will always be where you draw the line between left and right and why there. For example I consider myself to be a social libertarian and fiscal conservative so I am also a liberal and progressive. I find virtually all American media to be relatively right to far right, even CNN. Some of this is because I think planning for the future is important and because I think people are a more important concern than something abstract like "economy". In other words, I think an economy is just a tool to keep people fed, housed, happy, living a long life, etc. So, according to some, since I put society above an economy, I am a "socialist". Strange but I can live with that. So I would guess the real question becomes what is important and why when you draw lines and make the attached value judgements.


Forest,

The vast majority of the US MSM isn’t very pro abortion, gun control, LGBT rights, come one come all illegal immigration, anti conservative ideology(or being politically Republican), spending tons of money on social welfare programs etc? Many conservatives like myself here in the US would consider this type of ideology to represent a lefty or far left viewpoint(We also consider CNN to be very far left especially in their political reporting)
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Re: I tried to tell you about this for years...

Postby TheVat on February 19th, 2019, 3:33 pm 

I don't understand why we are judging the media reporting of news by opinion columns and editorials?? Those are clearly labeled as opinions, and there are plenty of conservative columnists available. The news sections, however, contain news, and are scrupulous about getting facts right, because lawsuits cost them millions.

The fact that I've heard of Michelle Malkin, Cal Thomas, Jennifer Rubin, Max Boot, Thomas Sowell, David Brooks, Charles Krauthammer, Jonah Goldberg, and others, would seem to be suggesting that conservative voices are not being suppressed or lacking outlets in the U.S. As Forrest pointed out, among developed countries the U.S. stands somewhat to the political Right of others, and spends less on social welfare programs than most others. As for socialism, it's utter nonsense to say we haven't been a socialist nation for decades -we started pooling tax money for old age care, retirement benefits, healthcare, transportation, education, veterans benefits, childcare for mothers in poverty, etc. nearly 100 years ago. Nations implement socialist programs because people like them and they buffer people, often the most vulnerable people, from catastrophic situations. Anyone here who has never received a dollar from the government, in some form, raise their hand. OK, you can take a purity position and pretend you're not a socialist. The rest of you are, like most of the nation, engaged in a conversation about how much socialism we want, not about its intrinsic value.

Regarding

She is basically saying that it has become really dangerous how the majority of the press is trying to force their own personal liberal/left bias and ideology down all of our throats...
- RonJ

These is emotion-laden language meant to alarm us, but lacking evidence. We don't allow that here at SPCF, for good reason. Ms. Logan can say whatever she wants - this thread is to discern if there is any evidence for her assertions. I'm an Independent, sometimes socially liberal, sometimes fiscally conservative, sometimes quite "socialist," sometimes Libertarian - it depends on the issue and what role I think government has in solving problems in society. I've never remotely felt that reporters are shoving "ideology" down my throat. If I don't want to read a columnist or editorial, I skip it. Just as you probably do, Ron. Just make sure you don't skip the factchecking on what an elected official says and claims. You may not like what you read, but facts aren't out to get you, and as the old saying goes, "the truth shall set you free." Tweets are not a source of information. That's why humanity, long ago, established the Press, where trained professionals can ferret out the actual facts.
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Re: I tried to tell you about this for years...

Postby BadgerJelly on February 19th, 2019, 5:07 pm 

Biv -

The news sections, however, contain news, and are scrupulous about getting facts right, because lawsuits cost them millions.


Is that a joke?
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Re: I tried to tell you about this for years...

Postby Lomax on February 19th, 2019, 6:05 pm 

ronjanec » February 19th, 2019, 3:50 pm wrote:BJ,

If you get all or most of your personal news from the BBC, the Guardian, CNN and other MSM sources, there will be no way for you to see or measure any bias in the media because your only sources for this will be almost always promoting a far left ideology to people like yourself.

Here's why I always think you're a bad mouthpiece for the obviously wise notion of seeking out varying points of view: you always lump in the likes of the BBC. Look, the BBC is very bland, but in order to sincerely believe it's "far left" you have to have completely protected yourself from any exposure to actual far left views. "Far left" is me saying that the proletariat should seize the means of production, or the younger Philippe Legrain advocating open borders, or Chomsky saying that democracy is powerless against Capitalism. It's not the stuffy sunday afternoon world of the BBC, which makes no such, and no other, radical claims.

Incidentally Pew published a survey a few years ago which found that cable news channels were almost unanimously in favour of a war in Syria. Look at which channel covered the broadest range of topics, and look at where Fox News sits. Also look at which channel did the best job of giving "equal time" - the answer might surprise you. Obviously whether support for Syrian intervention makes you left-leaning or right-leaning depends on your reasons and the instincts that led you to them, but the point is that the results clearly show that Fox News is not there to broaden your mind. The problem with the Overton Window is that it doesn't open out to greater nature and broader horizons; it confines you. In other words it ain't a window, it's a wall.
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Re: I tried to tell you about this for years...

Postby ronjanec on February 19th, 2019, 6:51 pm 

Vat,

If I had the time, or the personal will to again look this up, I could talk about a lot of examples where others in the news business besides Logan have accused and actually documented many examples where the MSM was very biased to the left. And conservative voices are being suppresed here in the US for the very same reasons Vat.

Can I personally (or anyone) prove this? Heck no. How in the world could someone with my personal background actually prove there is a worldwide bias to the left in the news media like she is saying here? She needs to prove what she is saying here? Even if she does, many will still not believe no matter how much evidence she presents(ask Bernard Goldberg https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/ ... 735c70fd5c and a number of others others who have written books about this if they were ever able to finally prove this)
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