'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrity

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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Lomax on August 5th, 2019, 5:05 pm 

I don't know much of Sanders's plan, and my only recent reading of the general debate has been Nathan J. Robinson's Never Trust The Cato Institute, so you'll have to humour me here. Does Sanders propose nationalising healthcare or just access to affordable insurance? And when Vat states that pragmatic (centrist, moderate, "serious", whatever) Americans are concerned about the hole the plan will blow in the US budget, what size hole are we talking? Has Sanders estimated a figure? Have his critics?
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Serpent on August 5th, 2019, 8:26 pm 

Lomax » August 5th, 2019, 4:05 pm wrote:I don't know much of Sanders's plan, and my only recent reading of the general debate has been Nathan J. Robinson's Never Trust The Cato Institute, so you'll have to humour me here. Does Sanders propose nationalising healthcare or just access to affordable insurance? And when Vat states that pragmatic (centrist, moderate, "serious", whatever) Americans are concerned about the hole the plan will blow in the US budget, what size hole are we talking? Has Sanders estimated a figure? Have his critics?


I don't know the particular of the Sanders plan - and I can't go searching now, because my compy's on one of its slow-down strikes. Apparently, several other Dem candidates have their own version.
I don't think it's just access - that was the compromise Obama made, that the republicans attacked so viciously. I think it's a comprehensive national universal insurance plan, including drug, dental and eye care, which our NDP is also pushing for. Unfortunately, the Canadian system has been severely undermined by a number of compromises: private hospitals, moonlighting doctors, surcharges - so that rich people can jump the queue, which means the rest of us have longer wait-times and fewer available beds - extra-benefit private insurance, and a whole lot of contracting-out to private laundries, caterers, etc. Conservatives always find ways to siphon money upward. Every $ that goes to a stockholder is taken out of a nurse's salary or off a linen cart in the public wards.

What 'conservatives' (they preserve nothing except their own power) are most worried about is replacing all the private health insurance companies, hospitals and clinics - and their big profits. Many people also worry about standardizing [capping] doctor's fees (That's always a big fight! Too many of them are convinced they're way more precious than people who merely produce food or bridges.)
He intends to finance it through taxes, business and income, rather than payroll contributions the way it's done in Canada. Americans are terrified of taxes - but they sure love to complain about public services!
Certainly, it means quite a lot of re-budgeting. But look what's going on with the economy already:
The ultra-rich are hiding $billions in profit off-shore, as well as investing overseas, and replacing workers with robots in all kinds of occupations. There will be increasing numbers of unemployed, who will not be able to buy private insurance. So they'll be a steadily increasing drain on public facilities - which are already inadequate - on emergency clinics, medicare, medicaid, welfare, unemployment, family services and law enforcement. (You'll steal too, if your kid will die without medicine you can't afford.) The governments are going to have to pick up the slack, and clean up the mess, left by private enterprise anyway - except the government won't have revenues to cover the shortfall unless they increase taxes. Figure in, too all the casualties from increased gun and domestic violence and all the - larger and larger number of victims of extreme weather events.

So, why do it slow step by painful, contentious step - wasting resources and duplicating effort at each increment? Why not make one coherent, comprehensive plan and carry it out as quickly and efficiently as possible? To begin with, they'll save a bundle on redundant administrative agencies and bill collection and absenteeism; later on, they'll reap the benefits of a healthier population - not so many mentally ill people roaming the streets with assault rifles, etc. Remember, too, whatever the government spends on health-care doesn't fly away: it stays in the country, providing employment and better conditions for the same people who pay the taxes.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Lozza on August 6th, 2019, 12:54 am 

Mossling » August 5th, 2019, 10:35 am wrote:
Lozza » August 5th, 2019, 3:14 am wrote:So, let me get this straight...America...the murder capital and mass-murder capital of the world, and you want to attribute the actions of a lunatic to Trump. You're clutching at straws. America has a lot of issues to resolve before you even get to Trump. There's an old adage that an electorate deserves its leadership...I need say no more.

Well check this out:

Trump laughs after audience member suggests shooting migrants – video

He bemoans not being able to shoot the migrants "like other countries do."

What more do you need?

Trump's basic message is: There's a Hispanic invasion and I wish we could shoot them.

Head of FBI C. Wray has also stated that since November last year, most domestic US terrorism has been White Supremacist - it's not just lunatic murderers, Lozza, there's broader political motivation.


He (Trump) has only one motivation and that's self interest. He's nothing but a con-man game-show host that's interested in money. He comes from property development, construction....so who do you think will make a lot of money from a border wall with Mexico? Trump. His rhetoric is aimed at making money. Is it irresponsible? Sure is! Is it inflammatory? Sure is! But even the shooter from El Paso stated in his manifesto that people will blame Trump, but that his thoughts about his actions predated Trump as president.

People that are disenfranchised resort to all sorts of measures...they are the perfect profile for recruitment into "terrorism", though no-one recruits "terrorists", everyone recruits "freedom fighters". America is overflowing with the disenfranchised...they are unemployed and feel desperate, with no hope on the horizon. America's problem is not Trump, it's the systemic devaluation of the citizen with profits taking priority with use of technology. This has been occurring for decades before Trump. Trump's personality highlights this, and the fact that there were enough idiots and people of self-interest that thought voting for Trump was a good idea, makes my point. And let's not forget the apathetic who were too lazy to vote against Trump or vote at all.

In another post you mentioned Hitler and his influence. But here's the thing...Hitler wouldn't have existed if the German people weren't disenfranchised post WWI, whereby the Treaty of Versailles imposed huge reparations and loss of agricultural and industrial lands, creating an impossible economic situation for Germany. Why do you think that Germany was rebuilt after WWII instead of being further raped like the Treaty of Versailles did post WWI? Because the powers that were, had learned their lesson...don't disenfranchise people, as it creates more problems than it solves.

The Western Economy is doing the same thing to its own citizens, as the "greed is good" mentality is prevalent. Manufacturing has moved to Asia, meaning that there are now huge numbers of unemployed or people that can only get casual jobs. CEO's are earning 600-1,000 times more than the lowest income earner of their corporations, no workers have any rights and people are wondering what the problem is. The problem is not an individual like Trump, he is only a manifestation of the problem. The problem is corporate greed at all costs. The problem is systemic corruption.

Look at the GFC and the Sub-Prime Loan fiasco, whereby one of the architects of the Sub-Prime Loan was Ben Bernanke, who instead of spending the rest of his life in jail, became head of the Federal Reserve. And while on the GFC, look at how governments bailed-out companies and banks because "they were too big to fail"...what a load of absolute shit!!! "Too big to fail" only means "I'm too corrupt and too easily bribed." Go figure, Wall Street funded something like 27% of Obama's election campaign...strange how no-one went to jail from Wall street, other than some tokenism from Lehman Bros, isn't it?

Bob Dylan said, "steal a little and they call you thief. Steal a lot and they call you king." In this instance, they call you "president".
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Serpent on August 6th, 2019, 1:32 am 

I'd agree, except that Trump is terrible at making money. Yes, he lied about that, too. Surprise!
His attempts at real estate and all show of success were part of the same psychological malfunction as his four decade long presidential campaign.
It's not about money. He's seeking validation - perhaps even an identity.
His motivation goes back to early childhood and American mythology: being President of the USA is the next best thing to deity. He doesn't have a horse, so he'll probably make Eric a senator, soon after which he'll declare himself a god. Wants a second term before he ascends.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Lozza on August 6th, 2019, 5:52 am 

I didn't say he was good at making money, but money is what drives him. You only need see how gauche and opulent his home is to see how important money is to him. It's money that gives him validation. Being president is only a means to an end of giving him more connections, domestically and foreign, to do business. The presidency gives him prestige...something he's never had. But my point to Mosling is that he is a symptom, not a cause.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Lomax on August 6th, 2019, 7:28 am 

Serpent » August 6th, 2019, 1:26 am wrote:Unfortunately, the Canadian system has been severely undermined by a number of compromises: private hospitals, moonlighting doctors, surcharges - so that rich people can jump the queue, which means the rest of us have longer wait-times and fewer available beds

As a preface: remember I'm asking these questions because Vat states that Sanders loses the Pragmatic vote on account of his expensive healthcare plans. We have private healthcare in the UK (I have used it once), and I'm not at all convinced it extends the public queues, or the public expense. For one thing it's not financed by the treasury (as the name suggests) but it is taxable, which if anything surely means it's feeding into the treasury and therefore funding the public option. For another thing it means the wealthy aren't crowding up the NHS wards if they don't want to. It actually seems to me like the standard mixed market compromise - nobody is left with a lifetime of debt because they needed surgery, but upward economic mobility is encouraged (in the individual) by the promise of faster, better healthcare. I'll concede that it probably soaks up all the best doctors, but then I expect the right-leaning types (and the Pragmatic crowd, and all that) would argue that a lot of the best doctors would simply leave the country if they couldn't earn a BUPA wage here.

You won't need to convince me, by the way, that socialised healthcare is a virtuous program. As I said to Vat, it enjoys strong public support here, despite the tax burden, and we've been testing it for seven decades. The point is that it's not unpragmatic to accept this tax burden in order to make sure the vulnerable (that is to say, the low-earning, the disabled and the constantly-sick) have access to treatment. They don't have to choose between being financially crippled and being, er, crippled. That's not folly, it's just public spirit. But we're just nodding to each other here so I'm hoping for Vat to jump back in.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Serpent on August 6th, 2019, 8:58 am 

Lozza » August 6th, 2019, 4:52 am wrote:I didn't say he was good at making money, but money is what drives him.

I don't think so. Pretending to be a 'deal-maker', having the appearance of success - hence the opulent crap - was necessary so that he could be in magazines and appear on talk shows. Pretty much the only reason he had to construct tall building was to stick his name on them. Before and after he became a tv 'star', he made every possible cameo appearance (as himself). He's always needed to be a celebrity. It's like he doesn't exist except when other people are looking at him, listening to him, cheering him, talking about him, reacting to him.
Being president is only a means to an end of giving him more connections, domestically and foreign, to do business.

The really powerful movers and shakers of the financial world are invisible. They machinate behind the scenes, through puppets, cat's claws, fronts and shells.
I believe it's the other way around. Not saying Trump doesn't like money, just that you use what you have to get what you want. He was given money, so he used it to get fame.
He's been trying to get on the world's biggest stage for a long time (chronic presidential candidate since 1987!) but when he was pretending to be liberal, reasonable, normal, nobody took him seriously. He had to become more and more outrageous to get enough attention - very much like a toddler ramping up a fake tantrum until it's out of control.
Everything about him is fake, even the ostentation. His actual tastes are quite simple: hamburgers and chocolate cake, golf and pretty girls.

But my point to Mosling is that he is a symptom, not a cause.

Neither is independent of the other; people and their environment are inextricably connected. His syndrome is certainly not unique in the modern industrial world; one could say his entire personality is a symptom of what's wrong with our society. He is legion! The poster boy of insatiable, insubstantial, self-aggrandizing alienation: the quintessential hollow man.
His presidency is the final diagnostic symptom of what is wrong with the US political system. America's weather balloon, you might say. (Truth? You out there? We need you!)
But at the same time, because of his particular psychological makeup, he can cause and is causing, a good deal of harm that some other incompetent or greedy or - heaven forefend! - lustful president might not have caused. One of those harms is validating and empowering all the other hollow men who crave to be noticed. He's giving them permission to throw a really big tantrum.
Last edited by Serpent on August 6th, 2019, 9:29 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby TheVat on August 6th, 2019, 9:20 am 

As a preface: remember I'm asking these questions because Vat states that Sanders loses the Pragmatic vote on account of his expensive healthcare plans. We have private healthcare in the UK (I have used it once), and I'm not at all convinced it extends the public queues, or the public expense.


I meant that the perception is that Sanders plan is costly. I don't believe it really would be, but he and other candidates proposing NHC haven't really made that case. The anxiety is also with voters who have healthcare plans from their companies that they feel are superior to anything they're going to have with a national plan. I don't know if that's valid, was just saying that someone needs to put some simple math out there without equations that make people's eyes glaze over. As Serpent said, this country is deathly phobic of taxes.

Personally, I think we would all pay more in crisis care for those lacking any healthcare than we would upping our tax payments into healthcare for all. It costs a lot less to flush out a kidney than to replace one.

Lomax - tagged this, in case you missed latest replies.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Serpent on August 6th, 2019, 10:18 am 

TheVat » August 6th, 2019, 8:20 am wrote:

Personally, I think we would all pay more in crisis care for those lacking any healthcare than we would upping our tax payments into healthcare for all. It costs a lot less to flush out a kidney than to replace one.

You are paying more in crisis care - not mention crises - than you would for a decent regime of preventive care and early diagnosis. I suspect, once the system was established, you wouldn't need to pay any more taxes, just deploy the same ones more effectively.
Those 'incidental' costs of health-care, lack of access, untreated injuries, chronic conditions, and undiagnosed mental illness are shuffled under the deck; they're the chronic hardship downloaded onto municipalities and counties, never accounted for in high-profile elections.
This disingenuous bookkeeping practice is also responsible for the difficulty of totting up the actual cost of anything: the bills are spread out over so many agencies, departments and institutions, under so many misleading titles, I would be surprised if the best forensic accounting team could find the exact figures.
Hardly fair, then, to ask a candidate with two minutes to speak (only one before she's interrupted) to demonstrate a national scheme in grade 2 level arithmetic.
The thing about workplace health insurance plans: companies keep laying people off, or going bankrupt, or upping sticks for Taiwan, or selling out to an international cartel. It's never going to happen to you? It wasn't supposed to happen to them, either, but it has. Another thing about a national plan is to standardize quality - so Mississippi gets the same standard of care as Vermont. Of course, this would have to be part of a long range plan, which necessarily includes Sanders' education proposal: train doctors who can afford to work in poor places - because they're not dragging $170,000 in student debt.

(That tax-phobia is no accident. Propaganda works.)
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby TheVat on August 7th, 2019, 12:01 pm 

Agree that standardization has the potential to help plug some holes, especially for states with poorer healthcare. And yes, the manage-by-crisis situtation is already well upon us here in the States, for many people who did not get preventive care. I don't think the candidates can really spell out the details of a sensible NHC plan in the present debate format, as you noted. And, yes, the plan needs to be truly national so that hidden costs or gaps can't be offloaded to other strata of government. It might make more sense for NHC payments to be separated from income taxes, as social security payments are now. I truly do not know - this is all a social experiment where the results will take a long time to collect and interpret. This doesn't fit well with the short-term gain mentality of politicians.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Serpent on August 7th, 2019, 2:56 pm 

Yeah, that ^^^ and then factor in the fifteen-second sound bite and the Dory-like attention span of news media reporters. The public isn't expected to sit still for a long, detailed analysis, so the popular media won't even attempt to offer them one.
It's complicated, and very, very big. It's also very, very important - a matter of life and death, in fact - for millions of people, which really ought to motivate somebody to give it an honest try.

One thing we can count on: a barrage of scurrilous disinformation, character assassination and strident denunciation from the the far right, the likes of which Obama's lukewarm plan received only in his nightmares.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Mossling on August 22nd, 2019, 2:48 am 

Lozza » August 6th, 2019, 6:52 pm wrote:But my point to Mosling is that he is a symptom, not a cause.

I haven't said it has all started with Trump - I agree with you; it existed before. Trump is just a high profile rally master (he literally holds rallies - like the one where he sniggered about shooting Hispanic immigrants) that is currently fanning the flames of bigotry and chaos.

Having racism and psychopathology festering under the surface is a quite different situation to having whole rallies celebrating it - not to mention such rallies being created and headed by the one man on this planet with the most power. It's terrifying stuff - no doubt a 'node' that will become as well-known in history as that of Hitler leading Germany off a moral cliff.

Trump's lunacy is still pushing boundaries, too - I mean, what's all this about him vying to buy Greenland from Denmark when it's not for sale, and then retaliating when he is told his aspirations are absurd? Whatever remaining decent reputation Americans had in the broader Western world is being dragged through a log-chipper. Why do the Danish deserve his condescending rhetoric? He is out of control.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Lozza on August 22nd, 2019, 2:57 am 

Mosling,

Yes, I agree with all that. But he's always been like that, yet the Republicans nominated him and the general public voted for him. It's a sad indictment on America at all levels...but then, so was GWB.

It would seem that at the end of each great empire, there needs to be a Nero...the US has had two.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Mossling on August 22nd, 2019, 6:06 am 

Agreed. It's Mossling by the way -_-
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Lozza on August 22nd, 2019, 7:53 am 

Mossling...oops, sorry.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby TheVat on August 22nd, 2019, 12:11 pm 

Lozza » August 21st, 2019, 11:57 pm wrote:Mosling,

Yes, I agree with all that. But he's always been like that, yet the Republicans nominated him and the general public voted for him. It's a sad indictment on America at all levels...but then, so was GWB.

It would seem that at the end of each great empire, there needs to be a Nero...the US has had two.


The general public voted for Hillary Clinton, by a margin of 3 million votes. The electors of the U.S. Electoral College voted in Trump. If you are not an American, you may not be familiar with this system, which gives undue voting power to more rural and Republican states. Presidents are not elected by the popular vote, as is done in most nations. You may hope, for the sake of the planet and all its nations, that at some point we see the challenge to democracy that this antiquated system poses and scrap it.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Serpent on August 22nd, 2019, 3:48 pm 

The whole first-past-the-post takes all system of electing representatives is undemocratic. Even without states having the power to move that post however they like - suppress voters, disenfranchise ethnic and economic groups, install rigged voting machines, etc, - it's never representative: a large part, often the majority of the population is left without a legislative voice.
In Canada, the idea of electoral reform is floated before just about election, and quietly jettisoned immediately after a majority government wins via FPTP. Since only a majority government could pass such a comprehensive piece of legislation, and it's not in their interest to do so.... one has to wonder how all those countries achieved it. I suspect the move was preceded by the existence of multiple parties and coalition governments.
We have not yet been able to form a successful coalition, though we've done not too badly with minority alliances. The US has painted itself into a corner with the two-party system: if one party is hijacked by extremists or pirates, there is no recourse.

Not that proportional representation can't be corrupted or hijacked - Russia and Hungary nominally have PR - but I'd sure like to see it honestly attempted: I advocated for it about through seven cycles, so far.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Lomax on August 22nd, 2019, 6:14 pm 

Serpent » August 22nd, 2019, 8:48 pm wrote:Since only a majority government could pass such a comprehensive piece of legislation, and it's not in their interest to do so.... one has to wonder how all those countries achieved it.

That's the main problem. But David Cameron put FTPT/PR to the popular vote before he did so with EU membership. He got his way that time around, as with the question of Scottish Independence, and it worked for him for a while - it meant the losing side couldn't blame him anymore; we had to blame each other. The third time he rolled the dice, he somehow rolled a zero - the whole embarrassing and chaotic affair has been to the Conservatives what the Iraq war was for Labour, and now (finally) the political right is almost as meiotic as the left. The problem as you pose it rests on the premise that politicians are always insightful and rational actors. You'll never get an altruist in charge, but you might get a buffoon. Hell, it's happened before...
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Serpent on August 22nd, 2019, 7:52 pm 

Lomax » August 22nd, 2019, 5:14 pm wrote:That's the main problem.... The problem as you pose it rests on the premise that politicians are always insightful and rational actors. You'll never get an altruist in charge, but you might get a buffoon. Hell, it's happened before...

Heaven knows, we've got an evil clown for premier of Ontario right now!
But you might, with sufficient pressure from the voters, get an altruist in a position where he or she can make it expedient for those in charge to consider the popular interest congruent with their own. That's a convoluted way to frame the issue - but then, the topography of a brain coral is simple compared to politicsis!
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Mossling on August 22nd, 2019, 11:02 pm 

As Socrates suggested in Republic (496a-e), if you are interested in Truth and justice, you've got to just build a small wall to shelter from the shit-storm, so that you can get on with your own more virtuous work. Otherwise, if you want more of a utopia then you're going to need a clean slate to start from (Republic, 501a).

Sounds about right to me. It's either a forest fire bringing fresh major opportunities to set stronger foundations, or an inevitable tangled spooky forest getting cluttered by dead trees resting on their neighbours giving homes to parasites way up in the canopy. And we're nowhere near a forest fire it seems.

An alternative metaphor to a forest is swamp , of course ;P
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Serpent on August 23rd, 2019, 12:53 am 

Mossling » August 22nd, 2019, 10:02 pm wrote: And we're nowhere near a forest fire it seems.

Looked at the Amazon lately? California? BC? Portugal? All the forests are burning.

if you want more of a utopia then you're going to need a clean slate to start from

No, that's wrong. Maybe we can't have any utopias, but the improvements we have made were not made by solitary wall-builders cultivating their their precious little virtues; they were made by people taking to the streets, braving the shit-storm.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Mossling on August 23rd, 2019, 1:30 am 

Serpent » August 23rd, 2019, 1:53 pm wrote:
Mossling » August 22nd, 2019, 10:02 pm wrote: And we're nowhere near a forest fire it seems.

Looked at the Amazon lately? California? BC? Portugal? All the forests are burning.

There's a keyword in my last line of that post you are quoting. Clue: it starts with an 'm.'

if you want more of a utopia then you're going to need a clean slate to start from

No, that's wrong. Maybe we can't have any utopias, but the improvements we have made were not made by solitary wall-builders cultivating their their precious little virtues; they were made by people taking to the streets, braving the shit-storm.

Possibly, and they braved the shit-storm for what? For the likes of Trump to step aboard airforce one with a cheeseburger in his hand? Lol.

It's apparently unravelling, whatever they achieved, and not for the first time. Look at the state of Socrates' beloved Athens now - a mere shadow of its former glory. America could easily end up like that. Trump is seemingly attempting to turn the place into the kind of "shithole country" that he abhors - with limited press freedoms, unlimited presidential terms, the poor caged in slums, and everything else for the rich to over-consume and deplete.

Civilization-builders and sustainers are not appreciated in such a climate, my friend. It's an apparent race to the bottom, and once that bottom has been reached, then new stronger foundations can be put in place.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Serpent on August 23rd, 2019, 9:04 am 

Mossling » August 23rd, 2019, 12:30 am wrote:There's a keyword in my last line of that post you are quoting. Clue: it starts with an 'm.'

You don't feel the Amazon, California and Portugal are poignant enough to stand in for Korea, Iran and Hong Kong?
Possibly, and they braved the shit-storm for what? For the likes of Trump to step aboard airforce one with a cheeseburger in his hand? Lol.

No, that's an unintended side effect. Fallout. But slavery isn't legal anymore, most places, and trade unions are; in some countries, women get to vote, even if their choice of candidates is limited, same sex couples may not be allowed to marry everywhere in the 'first world', but at least they're not electroshocked; old people like me are not sent to the poorhouse. It ain't a utopia, but I have it better than my great-grandparents.

It's apparently unravelling, whatever they achieved, and not for the first time.

The unfinished scarf of human history [m] is constantly ravelling and unravelling. The best we can hope for is that the difficult step forward is a few inches longer than the corresponding slide back.

Look at the state of Socrates' beloved Athens now - a mere shadow of its former glory.

Glory is always damned expensive - for somebody. I don't know how I'd have liked ancient Athens compared to modern Athens - depends on the class I was born into.

America could easily end up like that. Trump is seemingly attempting to turn the place into the kind of "shithole country" that he abhors - with limited press freedoms, unlimited presidential terms, the poor caged in slums, and everything else for the rich to over-consume and deplete.

Obviously. He embodies the devolution of poorly regulated capitalism.

In this kind of climate, my friend, hunkering down behind your little private wall is no protection from the shitstorm coming to a civilization near you. It wasn't for Socrates, either.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby charon on August 23rd, 2019, 12:26 pm 

Mossling -

then new stronger foundations can be put in place.


Yes, yes, but by whom?
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Serpent on August 23rd, 2019, 4:03 pm 

No new foundations can ever be "put" (In place? Where?). For organic intelligence, there is no foundation, no infrastructure - only roots and a heritage. If another species becomes dominant, they've already had their own antecedents, their own set of potentialities and limitations for millions of years.
You can tear down what people - or ants or beavers or swallows - have deliberately constructed; you can't tear out their nature. The path is forward from where you are; however grim, bizarre or mucky that place is, the most you can ever hope to do is make some aspect of it a little less bad.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Mossling on September 2nd, 2019, 4:51 am 

Could language be the key to detecting fake news?
The Guardian, 2 Sep 2019
Simon Fraser University in Canada, recently found that “on average, fake news articles use more … words related to sex, death and anxiety”. “Overly emotional” language is often deployed. In contrast, “Genuine news … contains a larger proportion of words related to work (business) and money (economy).”
[...]
...there’s an interesting correspondence with certain kinds of political rhetoric here. The language of fakery, with its powerful subjective statements and focus on anxiety, has something in common with that used by populist leaders. Their style, which often involves “adversarial, emotional, patriotic and abrasive speech” should put us on our guard too. Cooler heads make for a more boring read, but they might get you a little closer to the truth.

Interesting indeed.

It's like a signature of the fakers' vices is left in his or her statements and requires the reader to identify and submit to those vices also - like a virus of sorts that spreads through visceral channels.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Serpent on September 2nd, 2019, 10:00 am 

Mossling » September 2nd, 2019, 3:51 am wrote:
It's like a signature of the fakers' vices is left in his or her statements and requires the reader to identify and submit to those vices also - like a virus of sorts that spreads through visceral channels.


That's a fine, picturesque description!

Emotive language is certainly a factor in differentiating information from jingo and propaganda.

Unfortunately, television news has been subject to entertainment standards for decades now: under immense pressure to "hold the audience" in an era of shrinking attention-spans (that's a feedback mechanism) so they've had to include more and more visual drama. Sometime in the 1980's, reporters at the scene of a crime or accident started shoving microphones in the faces of bystanders and asking "How do you feel?". By the beginning of this century, they started to feature prominently the weeping next-of-kin. It's been very annoying that everybody cries on camera all the time now: for death, for deliverance from death, for winning and losing, witnessing and participating, men and women, victims and perps, athletes and soldiers - cry, cry, cry.
That doesn't mean some, or most, of these people are insincere: you can't tell which ones are faking, because maudlin histrionics have become habitual. So has hyperbole. So has the conflating of separate concepts through semantic or superficial similarities.
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Re: 'Post-Truth Politics' - Collapse in Information Integrit

Postby Mossling on September 10th, 2019, 7:45 am 

Wilbur Ross faces calls to resign after report he threatened firings over 'Sharpiegate'
The Guardian, 10 Sep 2019
the anxiety of top scientists at the Noaa who are dismayed that scientific findings made at the height of a severe public emergency should have been overridden in order to spare Trump’s blushes. On Monday the director of the National Weather Service, Louis Uccellini, praised the agency’s forecasters in Birmingham for having rebuffed Trump’s false tweet in an effort to avoid public panic.

“They did that with one thing in mind: public safety,” Uccellini told a meeting of the National Weather Association


I guess it's difficult to be 'post-truth' when a record-breaking hurricane is wreaking havoc...
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