Race and IQ, and the whole messy biology of humanity

Discussions that deal with moral issues. Key questions in ethics include: How should one live? What is right (or wrong) to do? What is the best way for humans to live?

Re: Race and IQ, and the whole meesy biology of humanity

Postby -1- on January 14th, 2019, 4:16 am 

TheVat » March 9th, 2018, 10:45 am wrote:One of my favorites was a locked room scenario where the key that would let you out was inside a sealed ping-pong ball at the bottom of a narrow vertical pipe whose inner diameter was just the tiniest bit larger than the ball, so most methods wouldn't work (like breaking off a narrow bit of wood from something or fashioning a hook).

Was the pipe fixed, and with the opening on top, ball on the lowest point? If not fixed, turn the pipe upside down.

Was there water available in the room?

-----------------

My solution would be, if it's a life-and-death situation, to fill the pipe with saliva (if water from other sources are not available -- if they are, use the water.) The overall specific gravity of the ping-pong ball is less than that of water, so the buoyancy of the liquid would lift the ball to the surface of the pipe.


If you had access to a straw, or a tube open on both ends, the solution would be different, but you can't have it, as it's just you, the pipe, the ball and the room.

If you have any paper money on you, you can fashion a tube, and push it into the pipe, and suck up the ball.

For this we must know if only the room was bare, or is me bare as well... meaning, do I have ordinary objects about me that I customarily carry around? If yes, then the paper-money thing may work out. (In the seventies everyone carried paper money.)

Easiest thing would be using a magnet, possibly on a string, but I don't know if Magnets are in the room; and if the pipe has iron or nickle in it or is it made of lead or copper.

Finally, and i don't know if it would work, one can blow into the pipe, and that would lift the ball a bit. Reason: the blown-in air would be, by its kinetic energy, higher denisity than the air in the pipe; it would hit bottom, the bottom of the pipe, and then proceed upward. The kinetic energy of the upward motion would move the ball a bit up. One would blow again quickly, when the ball bounces off the bottom, driving the ball a tiny bit closer to the opening than it reached the first time. Repeat this harmonic accelerative force, and eventually the ball will bounce up to the surface of the pipe, where you grab it.
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Re: Race and IQ, and the whole messy biology of humanity

Postby -1- on January 14th, 2019, 4:29 am 

Someone mentioned that they prefer using "ethnicity" over "race".

This is a misnomer. If I am a Bantu from Africa, or a Croat in Europe, I have my ethnic identity differing from my next door neighbour, but we share the same race. Ethnic is a poor substitute for the expression of race... both words expand their meaning so their original meaning is compromised.

I have no problem with using race as a word to describe typical skin colour and facial features.

However: What I have a HUGE problem with, is ANY discrimination based on race or on racial differences. There is no personality differences between the races, and that involves all metrics, which include but is not restricted to: IQ (of any value), valor (or lack of), empathy (or lack of), etc. etc.

I think society throws out the baby with the water. It is not important that you recognize a person's race. The important thing is NOT to draw inferences from it, and solely from it.

It's a bit like any other stigma. If you are a schizophrenic, there is no shame in it, because it's an illness, one you did not choose. But there is shame in it if others don't give you the same respect as earned. It is not replacing the word "schizophrenic" with "autism spectrum" or whatever that takes away the stigma; it is the attitude of society that when informed and understanding, would lead to stopping the stigmatizing.

If you are Black, White or Asian; if you are Negroid, Caucasian or Mongolid; does not matter, should not matter, beyond being an immediately spotted characteristic, which is NOT attached to characteristics of humans on which we base judgments of people.
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Re: Race and IQ, and the whole messy biology of humanity

Postby BadgerJelly on January 14th, 2019, 4:32 am 

Just call a locksmith to come and set you free ;)

Hypotheticals like this are something I find very interesting when set alongside ethical/moralistic issues. I think I’ve done that one to death elsewhere though - some got it and some didn’t. How best to make use of the hypothetical is an ongoing problem.
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Re: Race and IQ, and the whole messy biology of humanity

Postby BadgerJelly on January 14th, 2019, 4:38 am 

-1-

The point of this thread was to address the question of whether scientists should aboid this subject or not. I wish they’d say more than less, and whilst in the process of doing so make explicit to any dumb dumbs out there the distinction between zoological “race” and the identity “race.” In day-to-day speech people use the term “race” so it is up to the scientific community to bolster the factual data over the selected data taken on by misinformed speculation based on the idea of sifting through various data sets in order to “prove” a theory. Science is generally not set up select data to support arguments yet that is exactly how it is used in the public domain.

The article posted by VAT a page or two back from a geneticist pretty much echoed my own views on this subject.
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Re: Race and IQ, and the whole messy biology of humanity

Postby -1- on January 14th, 2019, 4:41 am 

BadgerJelly » January 14th, 2019, 4:32 am wrote:Just call a locksmith to come and set you free ;)

Hypotheticals like this are something I find very interesting when set alongside ethical/moralistic issues. I think I’ve done that one to death elsewhere though - some got it and some didn’t. How best to make use of the hypothetical is an ongoing problem.


Are you talking about the trains switch problem? Where you can save the lives of 10 people by killing one who otherwise would have survived?

My favourite is this:

You drive down the road in a cold and boisterous winter night, wind blowing, snow falling.

You drive past a bush shelter, where you see three people standing: an old lady, very old and frail, a young man who is your very good friend, and girl you've been secretly in love with, but never had the opportunity to approach.

You back up the car in reverse to pick them up. One problem: your car is a two-seater. It can only transport two people, literally.

What do you do?

(The solution is so beautiful it brings tears to my eyes. And no, I did not solve this properly.)
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Re: Race and IQ, and the whole messy biology of humanity

Postby -1- on January 14th, 2019, 4:54 am 

BadgerJelly » January 14th, 2019, 4:38 am wrote:-1-

The point of this thread was to address the question of whether scientists should aboid this subject or not. I wish they’d say more than less, and whilst in the process of doing so make explicit to any dumb dumbs out there the distinction between zoological “race” and the identity “race.” In day-to-day speech people use the term “race” so it is up to the scientific community to bolster the factual data over the selected data taken on by misinformed speculation based on the idea of sifting through various data sets in order to “prove” a theory. Science is generally not set up select data to support arguments yet that is exactly how it is used in the public domain.

The article posted by VAT a page or two back from a geneticist pretty much echoed my own views on this subject.

I answered with how I think humans should use the terms. In this instance, scientists are humans, so they are included in the sample.

I don't see the point in your post otherwise.

There are randomized data sets, and there are focussed data sets.

The scientific commuity has already done all that which you say they don't. They have measured the metrics. Otherwise how would you know, as someone put it in this thread, that the Asian race has less of a deviation (statistically speaking) but the same average of raw IQ points as the European? This has been measured, and the difference noted.

There are other differences as well, not just the Ashkenazi Jews having a disease which is unique to that ethnic group.

For instance, the specific gravity of the body is heavier in the African race, than in the European. Hence, all Olympic swimmers are White.

Is it something to discriminate against blacks for?

What I was trying to say in the previous post, was to RECOGNIZE the differences, but not draw inferences on moral or character descriptions from them. No behaviour predictions, no mental ability predictions.

So what is your point, exactly? I am struggling to grasp it.

Oh. Whether scientists should aboid this or not. Well, they have not, and there has been an enormous body of studies placed in studying the differences between races.

Should the scientists aboid studying this, though, is the question. Let's pretend it's up to us what scientists study, shall we?
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Re: Race and IQ, and the whole messy biology of humanity

Postby -1- on January 14th, 2019, 4:58 am 

BadgerJelly » January 14th, 2019, 4:38 am wrote:-1-

The point of this thread was to address the question of whether scientists should aboid this subject or not. I wish they’d say more than less, and whilst in the process of doing so make explicit to any dumb dumbs out there the distinction between zoological “race” and the identity “race.” In day-to-day speech people use the term “race” so it is up to the scientific community to bolster the factual data over the selected data taken on by misinformed speculation based on the idea of sifting through various data sets in order to “prove” a theory. Science is generally not set up select data to support arguments yet that is exactly how it is used in the public domain.

The article posted by VAT a page or two back from a geneticist pretty much echoed my own views on this subject.


Was the geneticist echoing you? He somehow learned your opinion, and wrote a paper to support it?

And if the opinion bore echo-strength similarities, why did you write it down again? Once in the article, once in your post.
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Re: Race and IQ, and the whole messy biology of humanity

Postby -1- on January 14th, 2019, 5:07 am 

BadgerJelly » March 7th, 2018, 11:47 pm wrote:Can we have a reasonable discussion about race and IQ or are we forever going to be running away from inconvenient truths and holding to wishful claims that suit our personal positions.

I find this area intriguing for a number of reasons both ethically and statistically. The data is far from conclusive, yet there is enough data out there for people to select certain parts in order to insinuate X or Y.

My position is I don't want there to be any racial distinction. In favour of my position there are innumerable flaws in data sets that show the opposite. These flaws include nutrition of pregnant women, size of data sets, environmental pollution, socioeconomic background, language, political systems, philosophical outlook, and general education and urban infrastructure - to name a few.


BadgerJelly, you say the topic of this thread is whether scientists ought to or not to study data sets with a variable measured that corresponds to race.

I re-read your original post. Your topic is, "Can we have a reasonable discussion about race and IQ or are we forever going to be running away from inconvenient truths and holding to wishful claims that suit our personal positions." So you are changing unilaterally the topic on the seventh page of posting? Why? And why precisely after I placed a comment, dinging me for its contents?

"My position is I don't want there to be any racial distinction". This is both unscientific and wrong. There are racial distinctions; for instance, skin colour. To wish that away is not possible. But you can help the issue by advocating to NOT place value-judgments on people's characters due to race. That is my point.
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Re: Race and IQ, and the whole messy biology of humanity

Postby BadgerJelly on January 14th, 2019, 6:08 am 

My post wasn’ t in opposition to yours. I don’t undertand why you chose to respond like that. I haven’t changed tack in this thread.

I was looking at how scientific data is used in sensitive subjects.

It is perfectly legitimate to use the term “echo” in the way I did and you seem to be looking for an avenue of attack for reasons you can divulge or nto if you wish.

Saying my position is about a “want” is not the same as saying I believe the position to be true (of course I don’t!).

I didn’t mention thoughts that led to the OP but brought them up latr regarding evolution and prenatal conditions having effects over several generations - the grey area betwee the old-fashioned nature nature argument.
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Re: Race and IQ, and the whole messy biology of humanity

Postby -1- on January 14th, 2019, 6:18 am 

Badger, I was okay with your responses until you changed the subject material of the thread, and I felt that you did that to hold me liable to why I wasn't addressing it.

And I agree, the echo could have been correct as well as incorrect in use. Echo always comes in time after the original sounding. It is true that the quote was placed in thread after you made the point; so in that sense you were right. On the other hand, the echo had been written way before you posted the thread, so maybe I was right.
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Re: Race and IQ, and the whole messy biology of humanity

Postby BadgerJelly on January 14th, 2019, 2:16 pm 

I didn’t, I wasn’t and no biggie :)
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Re: Race and IQ, and the whole messy biology of humanity

Postby ronjanec on January 14th, 2019, 4:09 pm 

-1- » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:41 am wrote:
BadgerJelly » January 14th, 2019, 4:32 am wrote:Just call a locksmith to come and set you free ;)

Hypotheticals like this are something I find very interesting when set alongside ethical/moralistic issues. I think I’ve done that one to death elsewhere though - some got it and some didn’t. How best to make use of the hypothetical is an ongoing problem.


Are you talking about the trains switch problem? Where you can save the lives of 10 people by killing one who otherwise would have survived?

My favourite is this:

You drive down the road in a cold and boisterous winter night, wind blowing, snow falling.

You drive past a bush shelter, where you see three people standing: an old lady, very old and frail, a young man who is your very good friend, and girl you've been secretly in love with, but never had the opportunity to approach.

You back up the car in reverse to pick them up. One problem: your car is a two-seater. It can only transport two people, literally.

What do you do?

(The solution is so beautiful it brings tears to my eyes. And no, I did not solve this properly.)


What’s the answer to the last riddle -1-?(In the first riddle, I would not kill the guy; I would just let events unfold as they were going to like if I wasn’t there)

(In regards to what sounds like the main issue/question here, or do black people in general have a lower IQ than whites and others: this forum is way too politically correct to have an honest discussion about this) :)
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Re: Race and IQ, and the whole messy biology of humanity

Postby davidm on January 14th, 2019, 4:58 pm 

ronjanec » January 14th, 2019, 2:09 pm wrote:[... this forum is way too politically correct to have an honest discussion about this) :)


Lol.

Let’s put aside for a moment the fact that there is no viable biological classification called “race,” any more than there is a viable biological classification known as “ethnicity.” Let’s tell a little tale instead.

Suppose someday a nation of lunatics decided that people with brown eyes were inferior to people with blue eyes. This is actually not far from what Nazi Germany decided.

Let’s round up all the brown-eyed people and make them slaves. Let’s keep them in slavery for hundreds of years. Then let’s grudgingly release them, after a Civil War maybe, but make sure they stay enslaved by other means. We deny them equal rights, the right to vote, the right to a decent education, the right to anything but substandard housing. Subsequent generations of “free” brown-eyed children grow up in poverty with a substandard diet, exposure to lead poisoning, and systemic discrimination that denies them the opportunity to learn and grow.

Then let’s give the brown-eyed people IQ tests and determine that they fall slightly below blue-eyed people — without even addressing the issue that it is unclear what IQ tests actually measure, and the fact that these tests have cultural biases to begin with.

Do you think that there might be some reason for the brown eyes falling below the blue eyes in the IQ tests, apart from, you know, their presumed genetic inferiority, which I guess, according to you, is too PC to admit to? Might there be a different reason for the average IQ difference? Ya think?

Bugger off.
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Re: Race and IQ, and the whole messy biology of humanity

Postby ronjanec on January 14th, 2019, 6:18 pm 

davidm,

Your example/anology pertains mostly to a segment of black people living historically in the US. The vast majority of very controversial discussions about lower genetic IQ in the black population pertain to sub Saharan Africa, where the white man had basically no influence on this for thousands of years. And yes, a poor diet may effect this, but Jewish people and Asians are said (collectively) to have a higher IQ than most others despite their ancestors also many times having a poor diet, and systemic discrimination.

Whatever the correct answer is here, and I’m not saying what is true here one way or the other, my point about the ‘Political Correctness’ is that you cannot have a honest discussion about subjects like this here on the forum(or even off the forum) because most/almost all people who are Liberals here or off the forum will not admit publicly something is true no matter how much evidence you present against it if it goes against their PC beliefs or PC personal straight jacket(and you know that’s true David)

(“Bugger off”? Yeah, right David. If someone appears to have a different opinion than you about something you throw in an insult at the end of your post for good measure?)
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Re: Race and IQ, and the whole messy biology of humanity

Postby PaulN on January 14th, 2019, 7:13 pm 

Actually, David M's example does also relate to effects in sub Saharan Africa, where colonialism, malnutrition, iodine deficient diets, malaria, helminth infection, and other environmental factors play a considerable role in stunting neurological development. TBH, I found a sentence ending in "and you know that's true...." more off-putting than the cursing. We reach for truth via evidence, e. g.

https://ieet.org/index.php/IEET2/more/p ... er20120307

If you read this article, I will be happy to discuss it. You have seven pages of chat about this, which doesn't strike me as a repressive approach to such a topic.
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Re: Race and IQ, and the whole messy biology of humanity

Postby ronjanec on January 14th, 2019, 10:50 pm 

PaulN » Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:13 pm wrote:Actually, David M's example does also relate to effects in sub Saharan Africa, where colonialism, malnutrition, iodine deficient diets, malaria, helminth infection, and other environmental factors play a considerable role in stunting neurological development. TBH, I found a sentence ending in "and you know that's true...." more off-putting than the cursing. We reach for truth via evidence, e. g.

https://ieet.org/index.php/IEET2/more/p ... er20120307

If you read this article, I will be happy to discuss it. You have seven pages of chat about this, which doesn't strike me as a repressive approach to such a topic.


Paul,

The important question here is whether or not sub Saharan black people(and other black people in general) in fact have much lower IQs than the rest of the worlds population in the first place? If true, then you try to figure out the possible causes of this, and then try to raise the level of their collective IQ to the rest of the worlds standards.

The problem here(and again on the forum) is people are afraid to give a public answer or opinion on this (and many other questions) because of the Liberal PC police. Look at what happened to this Nobel prize winner for daring to go against the tyranny of the Left, and their Political Correctness stand on this same issue;

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... e-comments

Is he right? I don’t know(and neither do they): but people should be allowed to exercise their free speech rights without the PC police trying their best to destroy you(If he was younger and still working somewhere, the reprecussions would have been a lot worse)
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Re: Race and IQ, and the whole messy biology of humanity

Postby BadgerJelly on January 15th, 2019, 2:27 am 

ron -

That isn’t the main issue. We already know the answer to that anyway ... like you said the issue is “why.”

David -

Many people dimiss the data because they refuse to take into account what IQ measures and want to ignore things they don’t like. It measure g, yet we’re not exactly sure what it is only that it generally encapsulates “intelligence.”

If you look into the history of the term eugenics you’ll find it didn’t originally set out to initiate genocide. Discrepancies in IQ at the tail ends of the distrubution are problematic in terms of how to apply education, and of course to fulfill peoples potential so their lives are better. IQ tests were originally a means to spot the extreme ends of the distribution not account for the middle.

Then of course if we’re talking about how accurate the data is and whether or not we’re taking into account so called “environmental factors” then is gets messy as hell as biology does. Caution is needed, yet we’d be foolish to ignore possible avenues of investigation because the subject lacks emotional appeal - even though it can if taken as a means to improve childhood education (note: the sad thing is there is no solid evidence that any encouragement helps with raising g because it appears to be innate).

Due to the happenings of thr last century this subject has become quite taboo yet it is something human society is going to have to face because we want to make lives better not worse.

Thankfully those with money haev found that the best way to improve the situation is to irradicate child malnutrition. What bothered me when I foudn out about it was the knock-on effect of this for generations. The point being that if certain groups of people have lower IQ scores it could well be because of their parents, parents prenatal conditons (see the work Sapolsky did here in regards to cortisol). What we’re left with is a number of complex questions and numerous people ready to jump on such data sets to push some personal agenda.

I do strongly believe more work needs to be done in terms of honing psychological data. The worry is then some idiots coming along and cherry picking pieces of studies to back their racist claims or to help them label others as racist merely for being interested in human diversity and intelligence (which has been clearly established in this thread as something that is very far from being the be all and end all of a human being).
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Re: Race and IQ, and the whole messy biology of humanity

Postby PaulN on January 15th, 2019, 10:58 am 


The problem here(and again on the forum) is people are afraid to give a public answer or opinion on this (and many other questions) because of the Liberal PC police. Look at what happened to this Nobel prize winner for daring to go against the tyranny of the Left, and their Political Correctness stand on this same issue.
-RonJ

Strawman, maybe? I'm not afraid to give a public answer, nor are others here. Mine is that IQ is lowered by environmental factors, and that Africans who are raised in developed countries with full access to education do not evidence any difference in IQ. That's not being "PC" but simply looking at facts. And would seem unsurprising, given the absence of any evidence of neurological differences among various ethnicities. I have no interest in political rhetoric, "tyranny of the Left, " and all that, but remind you that science does not have any obligation to favor the prejudices, or the fears, of the Right.
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Re: Race and IQ, and the whole messy biology of humanity

Postby Forest_Dump on January 15th, 2019, 11:47 am 

Since I have already posted above I will simply reiterate that 1) I don't believe that races exist as more than arbitrary constructs and 2) that I am skeptical about what, if anything, IQ measures beyond an ability to solve little puzzles. (I would note that no one has ever asked me what my IQ is in any kind of formal setting such as a job interview nor have I ever asked any one I have interviewed, etc. I always prefer to look at people as individuals based on their education, where relevant, their experience, personalities, etc.) So one bottom line for me is to question what IQ scores are even relevant in many cases even if they were an accurate measure of something.

If I were to grant that IQ's might be accurate of something useful, there do appear to be many studies that suggest external, environmental factors play a role. Specifically, there seems to be some agreement that improving health and nutrition plays a positive role. In fact, whether or not you believe that IQ's are meaningful and useful, I think we can all agree that improving health and nutrition is a positive thing. So why not cut out the "middleman" as it were and avoid what is obviously a contentious debate and simply set out to improve the health and nutrition of sub-Saharans and any others whose intelligence, happiness, etc., seems to be below par? Unless of course what you are after is something else like selling IQ testing.
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Re: Race and IQ, and the whole messy biology of humanity

Postby BadgerJelly on January 15th, 2019, 12:05 pm 

With all due respect some people, such as myself, are interested in cognitive development and what intelligence is.

IQ measures something. All tests made that try to dimiss the existence of ‘g’ have confirmed the existence of ‘g’. IQ tests have various forms, but overall ‘g’ is being measured to some degree.

The issue of “race” I’ve outlined pages back. This is a commonly used term to describe tiny differences in genetics between groups of people (again, it’s been addressed alread - a problem when a thread has remained dormant for a long time). There are plenty of subtle genetic differences between peoples; this is what is meant when “race” is referred to.

The main distinction we know of are fluid ans crystalline intelligence.

And to reiterate, being “intelligent” doesn’t make you more valuable as a human being.

What it is that distinguishes people like Mozart and Einstein from me I find to be a very interesting question. The thing that is extraordinarily annoying to me is that the political tilt put on genuine scientific investigation does little more than hold back our potential to understand who and what we are and all we could possibly be - not to mention adding weight to the idea of improving general education and giving the next generations a better footing cognitively ... or maybe being slower will stop us from self destruction? I’ve yet to hear a good argument for decreasing the human capacity for clarity of thought on some moral grounding.
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Re: Race and IQ, and the whole messy biology of humanity

Postby Forest_Dump on January 15th, 2019, 12:40 pm 

Well I certainly have no problems looking at questions relating to changes in cognition, etc. I actively engage in many activities that I believe to move in directions I believe to be positive but also acknowledge that on occasion some of my activities area also believed to be neutral, debatable or even detrimental. However, I definitely have concerns when people attempt to impose their beliefs or values on others either through public policy or individual actions. Ronjanec, for example, stated that he believes sub-Saharans might have lower IQs. Whether or not such a belief can be argued to be accurate, meaningful or useful, i think ther is no debate that raising health and nutrition would improve IQ or at least make everyone happier. So even if that hypothesis were disproven, almost everyone would come out ahead.
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Re: Race and IQ, and the whole messy biology of humanity

Postby -1- on January 15th, 2019, 4:49 pm 

ronjanec » January 14th, 2019, 4:09 pm wrote:
-1- » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:41 am wrote:
BadgerJelly » January 14th, 2019, 4:32 am wrote:My favourite is this:

You drive down the road in a cold and boisterous winter night, wind blowing, snow falling.

You drive past a bush shelter, where you see three people standing: an old lady, very old and frail, a young man who is your very good friend, and girl you've been secretly in love with, but never had the opportunity to approach.

You back up the car in reverse to pick them up. One problem: your car is a two-seater. It can only transport two people, literally.

What do you do?

(The solution is so beautiful it brings tears to my eyes. And no, I did not solve this properly.)


What’s the answer to the last riddle -1-?


I get out of the car, get my friend to drive the old lady, and the girl and I stay in the bus shelter, waiting for the next bus.
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Re: Race and IQ, and the whole messy biology of humanity

Postby ronjanec on January 15th, 2019, 6:03 pm 

BadgerJelly,

We already know the answer to this question!? Black people do in fact have lower IQs than most of the world’s population and the important question now is why this is true? Almost all that I have ever heard or read about this says this is not true, and anyone who would dare to say this publicly would be ruined by the dreaded PC police.
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Re: Race and IQ, and the whole messy biology of humanity

Postby ronjanec on January 15th, 2019, 6:14 pm 

My favourite is this:

You drive down the road in a cold and boisterous winter night, wind blowing, snow falling.

You drive past a bush shelter, where you see three people standing: an old lady, very old and frail, a young man who is your very good friend, and girl you've been secretly in love with, but never had the opportunity to approach.

You back up the car in reverse to pick them up. One problem: your car is a two-seater. It can only transport two people, literally.

What do you do?

(The solution is so beautiful it brings tears to my eyes. And no, I did not solve this properly.)[/quote]

What’s the answer to the last riddle -1-?[/quote][/quote]

I get out of the car, get my friend to drive the old lady, and the girl and I stay in the bus shelter, waiting for the next bus.[/quote]

Thanks -1-: That makes a lot of sense.(Or you could just put the old lady and your friend in the trunk, and put the hottie in the car with you)
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Re: Race and IQ, and the whole messy biology of humanity

Postby -1- on January 15th, 2019, 11:39 pm 

ronjanec » January 15th, 2019, 6:14 pm wrote:Thanks -1-: That makes a lot of sense.(Or you could just put the old lady and your friend in the trunk, and put the hottie in the car with you)


Well, if the trunk is used, I'd put myself and the girl in the trunk... makes friends and a better, deeper understanding of the other much quicker than in the front seats.
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Re: Race and IQ, and the whole messy biology of humanity

Postby -1- on January 15th, 2019, 11:49 pm 

Okay. The PC Left has a point. Assume, or accept for the sake of argument, that one race is smarter than the other. More intelligent. Scores consistently higher on standardized, non-verbal and culture-free IQ tests.

Where does this put the other races?

"Yoo shtoopid dumfuk, yoo no-good, worfless cretin."

This can't be tolerated. Even if it's true.

I checked a number of pages on the Internet that deal with IQs between races. It turns out that about 2 percent of blacks are above the 132 IQ point mark, while a staggering 98 percent of whites are excluded from this zone; meanwhile in the Mongolid race, the IQ measurement shows that 98 percent of Asians are stupider than people with an IQ 132.

These are facts, anyone can verify it who knows math and statistics and can read articles on the Internet.
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Re: Race and IQ, and the whole messy biology of humanity

Postby BadgerJelly on January 16th, 2019, 3:02 am 

ronjanec » January 16th, 2019, 6:03 am wrote:BadgerJelly,

We already know the answer to this question!? Black people do in fact have lower IQs than most of the world’s population and the important question now is why this is true? Almost all that I have ever heard or read about this says this is not true, and anyone who would dare to say this publicly would be ruined by the dreaded PC police.


You’re confusing my post with someone else’s. Yes, a lot evidence does point to that - it is myopic to look only at the evidence that supports another piece of evidence. From what I’ve looked at a lot of the results are skewed by certain stress issues. Some people under certain conditions perform better than others. I know from personal experience that I myself seem to work better under pressure. Some studies indicate that people perform differently under tests due to what they’re told the test is for. When it comes to “race” then people become stessed and generally speaking stress doesn’t help people focus - especially, I’d say, if your mother’s, mother’s, mother was conceived and born under highly stressful conditions. The effect on neurogenesis is no joke, and an early exposure to cortisol can subdue ‘g’.

Given that biology is a messy subject we need to be cautious though. Lamarkian ideas were dismissed before, epigentics were dismissed too in years gone by ... now we know “better”.

What -1- says is also typical of skewing the meaning of “intelligence” to mean worthless. It seems to me most people opposed to such studies are generally those who shout that intelligence doesn’t define a human, yet quickly say it is derogatory to say the mean intelligence of a huge group of people is lower than another - which it is, true enough. The question once people get past this (which many don’t usually because they then decide to dismiss any meaningful measure of intelligence) the question is then about the how and why.

It is quite possible that if two groups who differ in mean IQ were then studied over several generations that we’d see a complete turn around with the lower becoming higher and the higher becoming lower. One of the main factors (from what I’ve read) is nutrition and PRENATAL CONDITIONS which steer the likelihood of one genetic pathway being taken over another (homeones play a massive role in the development of a fetus).

To sum up. I don’t see the benefit of finger pointing and calling each other “PC” or “Right-wing”. Science doesn’t care, and if scientists cared less then maybe we’d be able to silence those pushing some misguided agenda.
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Re: Race and IQ, and the whole messy biology of humanity

Postby TheVat on January 16th, 2019, 1:36 pm 

Some answers may lie in anthropology, where we learn how humans like to define groups as "others" in order to further solidarity of their own tribal group. IQ is just one of many scales that provide a facile means to measure an "other" group without being encumbered by much thought or empathy. As several have noted, the real question of some urgency is how to upgrade prenatal care, nutrition, living conditions and education, without regard to spurious classifications of otherness.

Regarding Ron's comment that anyone who publicly comments on IQ among ethnic groups is attacked by PC police.... While this does happen, I have to agree with an earlier observation that people are commenting here quite freely on the matter. This seems like a healthy state of affairs which allows specific observations and metrics to be challenged openly on their factual basis.

IQ, in its present form, seems to be strongly dependent on early childhood exposure to certain types of learning and opportunities for interpreting symbols, as several here have noted. So, when someone points out that parts of the world where such exposure is limited or nonexistent, and combined with neurologically-harmful scarcity, then it's almost tautological to say that IQ is lower. It would be bizarre if it WEREN'T lower. Put a group of Danes in a tropical jungle village for a few generations, without access to the aforementioned opportunities and with constant suffering from parasitic diseases and hunger, and I'm pretty sure you would get some very low IQ Danes.
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Re: Race and IQ, and the whole messy biology of humanity

Postby Forest_Dump on January 16th, 2019, 1:51 pm 

Indeed many do seem to want to argue that what appear to be environmental problems (i.e. IQ) can be argued to be essentialized to (highly disputed) genetic groups. How would Ron view the statistics that might indicate that American white males are statistically more likely to follow the alt-right and engage in mass shootings? How would we solve that problem? Should people treat those people differently in the mean time?
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Re: Race and IQ, and the whole messy biology of humanity

Postby Lomax on January 25th, 2019, 10:54 am 

Glad, in a way, to see this thread is still going, because I've just read a compelling article by former race-IQ speculator William Saletan on why it probably shouldn't be.

Saletan does think the discussion is harmful but he is not arguing for scientific taboos - rather he is arguing against the harm of pseudoscience:

William Saletan wrote:Here’s my advice: You can talk about the genetics of race. You can talk about the genetics of intelligence. But stop implying they’re the same thing. Connecting intelligence to race adds nothing useful. It overextends the science you’re defending, and it engulfs the whole debate in moral flames.

I’m not asking anyone to deny science. What I’m asking for is clarity. The genetics of race and the genetics of intelligence are two different fields of research.

William Saletan wrote:There are two scientific problems with making this kind of inference. The first is that bringing race into the genetic conversation obscures the causal analysis. Genes might play no role in racial gaps on IQ tests. But suppose they did: To that extent, what would be the point of talking about race? Some white kids, some black kids, and some Asian kids would have certain genes that marginally favor intelligence. Others wouldn’t. It’s still the genes, not race, that would matter.

This is a rare point of consensus in the IQ debate. In his interview with Harris, Murray notes that in The Bell Curve, race was a crude proxy for genetics. Since the book’s publication in 1994, our ability to assess genetic differences has come a long way. Today, scientists are evaluating thousands of genes that correlate with small increments in IQ. "The blurriness of race is noise in the signal," Murray tells Harris. "It’s going to obscure … genetic differences in IQ."

William Saletan wrote:Murray and others have answers to these objections. They argue that education programs have failed to close racial gaps, that studies haven’t proved that getting adopted has much lasting effect on kids’ IQ scores, and that collective increases in IQ scores are based on factors other than “general” intelligence. These are complex disputes full of nuances about replicating studies, interpreting test questions, and extrapolating from trend lines. But notice how far we’ve drifted from biology. The science here is oblique, abstract, and tenuous. Are you still comfortable speculating about genetics?

The article is well-argued and leaves the impression that the likes of Sam Harris are somewhat embarrassingly far behind in the debate. I'm not going to catch up on all seven pages of this thread today, but perhaps somebody can let me know whether we've yet solved the unnecessary problem we created, of knowing how to demarcate between races.
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