How come I can't sell "veganism"?

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Re: How come I can't sell "veganism"?

Postby zetreque on June 25th, 2017, 7:46 pm 

Lomax » Sun Jun 25, 2017 3:35 pm wrote:People won't magically figure sex education out. Poorer, more backward - yes, more starving - countries are more prone to autocratic domination, to lack of education, and to miseducational nonsense like the Catholic Church telling them that condoms are worse than AIDS. Sivad's point is good enough that I wish I had thought of it myself - cheer for famine and dessication, you cheer for a future of nobody figuring much out at all. Whether they survive or not.


So get people educated. Until people give up golf courses, I'm not going to bat an eyelash about conserving water. Until people figure out a lot of things I'm not going to suffer because I do my part more than anyone I know. I'm against anything that contributes to growth these days. I've had it and taking a stand for solving problems (like education and awareness) to bring us into sustainability of current problems before going forward any further. People everywhere are having 4 5 6 kids still and then complain about resources. It's not the vegans or scientists making synthetic meat that is going to solve our problems.
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Re: How come I can't sell "veganism"?

Postby Lomax on June 25th, 2017, 7:52 pm 

If starvation comes it will come for you too. The fact that you think (rightly or wrongly) that you've done your bit won't save you. History to the defeated may say alas, but cannot help or pardon. For the continued survival of the ones I love I am grateful to Borlaug, and will probably find myself equally grateful for whatever scientist finds a way of sparing 5-6 billion chickens a year a life of beakless, lightless, pestilent overcrowding. Meanwhile affluent countries do, in fact, find their population growth leveling off, while impoverished countries do not. Good luck in your quest to educate (and starve) those who cannot pay for it.
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Re: How come I can't sell "veganism"?

Postby zetreque on June 25th, 2017, 8:06 pm 

I think a lot of these technology fixes which extend resources is just setting us up for a harder crash. It's incredibly complex. We can't just talk about starvation here. It's agriculture knowledge, culture, water, land, ecology, economy, politics. I'm not being a hypocrite saying that I won't starve too. I just don't believe in the growth model anymore and there are a lot of connected parts of the system. So one of them that patches a leak in one part of the system just allows the system to keep growing. I'm losing my compassion every day as more people encroach upon my home. I just wasted the past three days trying to be nice helping someone out only to be taken advantage of but that's getting way off topic here. It's going to be a hard sell to convince me that synthetic meat is going to help humanity or anything in the long run.
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Re: How come I can't sell "veganism"?

Postby Sivad on June 25th, 2017, 8:20 pm 

zetreque » June 25th, 2017, 4:46 pm wrote:It's not the vegans or scientists making synthetic meat that is going to solve our problems.



It's gonna be a combination of factors. I get discouraged and cynical too. The way I get my head and my heart back in it is by reflecting on all those generations of people who didn't even have the promise of science and technology to depend on. Think about what it must of been like when knowledge and technology didn't change for hundreds or even thousands of years, all those people had was religion. We have endless possibilities, real tangible prospects, it's a privilege that very few of us have ever known. We need to make the most of this, we have opportunities, it would be crazy to squander the moment in negativity and cynicism.
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Re: How come I can't sell "veganism"?

Postby zetreque on June 25th, 2017, 8:31 pm 

Ancient religions incorporated more sustainability practices though. People are too quick to discount how good life was back then. If you were in a good tribe with everyone working together, then life was pretty good. Many anthropologists say that a lot of ancient hominids lived pretty relaxed lives.

Fast forward to the past 10 thousands years about and life still wasn't bad for a lot of people except they had to worry about the dictators and greedy wealth empire builders.

Right now, society is way too far on the curve for technology. Growth needs to stop and culture needs to catch up.

Getting back to the OP, we have a cultural problem, not a dietary problem.
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Re: How come I can't sell "veganism"?

Postby Sivad on June 25th, 2017, 9:11 pm 

zetreque » June 25th, 2017, 5:31 pm wrote:People are too quick to discount how good life was back then.


It's always the best of times and the worst of times, all I'm saying is we should make the best of the moment.
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Re: How come I can't sell "veganism"?

Postby Graeme M on June 25th, 2017, 9:24 pm 

Athena » June 25th, 2017, 12:59 pm wrote:There are dietary reasons for depending on animal protein. Especially in our later years our digestive system can really be opposed all those vegetarian substitutes for protein and as much as we may like a plate full of salad greens, not everyone can eat them. It is crazy. Our favorite healthy foods can be a serious digestive problem and it just doesn't seem fair.


I don't think this is true. What do you mean, "vegetarian substitutes" for protein?



Athena » June 25th, 2017, 1:13 pm wrote:You make me want to know if insects and worms are okay for vegetarians?


A lot depends on what someone means by vegetarian or vegan. Strict vegans do not believe in eating or exploiting any animals, so insects and worms are right out. I wouldn't be that strict - I am more concerned about harms to those creatures that have sufficient awareness to suffer in many farming situations, or those for whom life has some meaning. I agree it's hard to know, but I tend to think that insects and worms don't have enough neural complexity for that, and insects in particular have plenty of potential as a cheap source of nutrition in many poorer nations. This is already being pursued with great success.
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Re: How come I can't sell "veganism"?

Postby Athena on June 26th, 2017, 11:36 am 

Graeme M » June 25th, 2017, 7:24 pm wrote:
Athena » June 25th, 2017, 12:59 pm wrote:There are dietary reasons for depending on animal protein. Especially in our later years our digestive system can really be opposed all those vegetarian substitutes for protein and as much as we may like a plate full of salad greens, not everyone can eat them. It is crazy. Our favorite healthy foods can be a serious digestive problem and it just doesn't seem fair.


I don't think this is true. What do you mean, "vegetarian substitutes" for protein?



Athena » June 25th, 2017, 1:13 pm wrote:You make me want to know if insects and worms are okay for vegetarians?


A lot depends on what someone means by vegetarian or vegan. Strict vegans do not believe in eating or exploiting any animals, so insects and worms are right out. I wouldn't be that strict - I am more concerned about harms to those creatures that have sufficient awareness to suffer in many farming situations, or those for whom life has some meaning. I agree it's hard to know, but I tend to think that insects and worms don't have enough neural complexity for that, and insects in particular have plenty of potential as a cheap source of nutrition in many poorer nations. This is already being pursued with great success.


All the delicious beans. I love them, but my digestive track isn't working as good as it once did. I love all the vegetables that cause gas too. It is the pits when all these healthy foods become a problem. Not just the normal gas, but such severe pain one wonders if it is time to go to the emergency room. I have pestered my doctor too many times with my fear that something is seriously wrong.

Some older people are told to completely avoid greens. One gentleman, I eat lunch with on Wednesday, is so restricted in his diet, it seems hardly worth his effort to come to lunch. I hope we learn more about these problems so we can correct them, instead of restricting our diets. Laugh, I thought old folks talking these matters were weird and disgusting. I am now one of them. We tell each other all about good bacteria and bad bacteria and what to eat and not eat. We wonder if the additives to our food have increased our problems? It seems hard to believe we can have so many problems and there are not easy fixes.

In the 60 tys I saw a movie with my parents about food around the world, and back then a plate of ants in New York was $25. That was a lot of money in the 60 tys. I know people eat snails and grasshoppers. I just haven't gotten my head around eating bugs. However, watching the guy in the youtube I posted, made me wonder if I could enjoy eating bugs? I once had a diary written long ago by a woman who explained eaten locus because the bugs had eaten all the food they grew and would normally eat. I believe the Bible says we can eat locus.
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Re: How come I can't sell "veganism"?

Postby TheVat on June 26th, 2017, 12:35 pm 

The weirdest argument for eating meat that I hear, which Graeme has mentioned here, is "well, it just tastes so good!" When you point out that line of argument could as well justify eating Romanian orphans ("Orphans are delicious, taste like tender pork!") or the actress who plays the younger Jane Tennison on "Prime Suspect, 1973," you just get a funny look. So you try to broaden the argument, to help them see the problem: it's basically saying, I do this because it gives pleasure. Pedophiles do what they do, for the same reason. Then your interlocutor gets mad and stomps off. IOW, people who advance the Taste Argument really have no interest in ethical philosophy or challenging their own assumptions. And that's really my answer to the OP question. Bioethics is really not a popular pastime. And, in this world, it probably needs to be.
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Re: How come I can't sell "veganism"?

Postby Serpent on June 26th, 2017, 2:26 pm 

Braininvat » June 26th, 2017, 11:35 am wrote:The weirdest argument for eating meat that I hear, which Graeme has mentioned here, is "well, it just tastes so good!"

The funniest aspect of that argument is: It's not true! If meat tasted so damn good, why rub it with plant-sourced spices, marinate it in fruit-based wine, baste it with olive oil, stuff it with bread and sage, smother it in tomato sauce? I go outside, pick a blueberry or pod of green peas or baby carrot, and plop it in my mouth - those things taste like heaven. Can you really do the same with a partridge?
Really, any prepared food tastes exactly as good as the cook makes it.

When you point out that line of argument could as well justify eating Romanian orphans

That's the most tragic aspect. What I find most discouraging is the style of word-magic that Sivad exemplifies (by no means unique to him), where "attempted escape" is turned into "flight response" and "panic" becomes something quite different from our own when a goose displays it; all the reactions and emotions that we know exactly how they feel when we act this way are demoted to "just instinct" when a sheep or chicken behaves the same way. And yet he's convinced that, if a human were in the cage, with no chance to develop its cognitive abilities and social skills, its signs of intelligence would be "unmistakable". I'm not so sure that's true... see Romanian orphans.
I usually give up at that point, because an adroit rationalizer won't be deterred by any argument I can muster.

... or the actress who plays the younger Jane Tennison on "Prime Suspect, 1973," you just get a funny look.

Here's your funny look. Mind you, I watched it last night and she's undeniably delicious - also a credible prequel to the admirable Mirren. Even so, is this entirely sequitur?

IOW, people who advance the Taste Argument really have no interest in ethical philosophy or challenging their own assumptions.

In fairness, this is usually a second-tier argument, along with the Exception/What-if (allergy, gastric intolerance, unavailability, etc), behind the advance phalanx, which usually includes the Caveman argument, the Big Brain argument , the Evolutionary Adaptation argument and the ever-popular Amino Acid argument. Together, I suppose these can be classed as the No Viable Option argument.

The ethical aspect largely consists of: "They're lesser beings, so it's okay."
That's exactly what I say about plants. I base my argument on a single biological assumption: No brain, no pain.
(I don't consider the frivolous Screaming carrot argument worth responding to.)
But everything after that - land and water use, methane production, population control, population health, equitable food distribution, technological advancement, projection for the future of mankind and environment - all that stuff, however complicated it gets - the available stats are on the vegetarian side.
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Re: How come I can't sell "veganism"?

Postby Graeme M on June 26th, 2017, 10:27 pm 

Athena » June 26th, 2017, 11:36 am wrote:
All the delicious beans. I love them, but my digestive track isn't working as good as it once did. I love all the vegetables that cause gas too. It is the pits when all these healthy foods become a problem. Not just the normal gas, but such severe pain one wonders if it is time to go to the emergency room. I have pestered my doctor too many times with my fear that something is seriously wrong.

Some older people are told to completely avoid greens. One gentleman, I eat lunch with on Wednesday, is so restricted in his diet, it seems hardly worth his effort to come to lunch. I hope we learn more about these problems so we can correct them, instead of restricting our diets. Laugh, I thought old folks talking these matters were weird and disgusting. I am now one of them. We tell each other all about good bacteria and bad bacteria and what to eat and not eat. We wonder if the additives to our food have increased our problems? It seems hard to believe we can have so many problems and there are not easy fixes.


This is an interesting one, and I think it's partly due to people not always knowing what's good and what isn't, and partly decades of misinformation by the livestock farming industry (or perhaps just the public perception as shaped by what's considered the norm).

Apart from a few things to be careful of, plant-based eating is generally regarded nowadays as a healthier option. Even just limiting animal product intake to a minor part of the diet can pay big dividends. Other than vitamin B12 I think you can pretty much get all you need from plants without eating animals though as you observe, age and genetics play a big part.

B12 for example can be a problem for many older folk due to our ability to absorb it failing as we age. And I mean any older folk, not just vegans. In fact, common age-related health disorders in the elderly may really be B12 deficiency. Symptoms of B12 deficiency include muscle weakness, fatigue, shakiness, unsteady gait, incontinence, low blood pressure, depression and other mood disorders, and cognitive problems like poor memory.

When it comes to protein, for most of us it's just not an issue. We often hear about how we need animal protein (no, we don't) or about complete proteins (a bit misleading), or even the old complementary proteins idea (valid but again somewhat misleading).

The truth is as long as you eat a relatively varied plant-based diet and get enough calories you'll be fine. For example, potatoes are a complete protein. You can probably live for a long time on nothing but potatoes (https://www.spudfit.com/).

Braininvat » June 26th, 2017, 12:35 pm wrote:The weirdest argument for eating meat that I hear, which Graeme has mentioned here, is "well, it just tastes so good!" When you point out that line of argument could as well justify eating Romanian orphans...

...Bioethics is really not a popular pastime. And, in this world, it probably needs to be.


So true. It's remarkable the mental contortions people go to in order to defend against the ethical charge. Taste seems to be a primary motivator but I don't really understand that one. Someone even used it with me yesterday: "Name me a plant that tastes as good as bacon", she challenged.

Ummm what? I dunno, strawberries, oranges, baked potato and pumpkin, the list goes on. I think people hear "grass" whenever anyone says vegan or plant-based, ignoring for the moment all the non-animal things they themselves like to eat. I don't even get bacon. I've eaten probably a ton of pigs as bacon in my life and have to say it's never been that thrilling - salty, greasy and uncomfortably heavy in my gut. I can honestly say sauteed kale runs rings round it. But people never get to honestly evaluate other foods because so many external influences color their expectations and prejudices. There are zillions of plants to eat, so there is simply no shortage of tasty options even before you get into the "faux" meat things.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/expresident/ea ... .mlvG15o1K

On the question of ethics and flimsy defences against ethical charges, I rather like this one I saw just this morning!

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Re: How come I can't sell "veganism"?

Postby Lomax on June 27th, 2017, 5:06 pm 

zetreque » June 26th, 2017, 1:06 am wrote:I think a lot of these technology fixes which extend resources is just setting us up for a harder crash. It's incredibly complex. We can't just talk about starvation here. It's agriculture knowledge, culture, water, land, ecology, economy, politics. I'm not being a hypocrite saying that I won't starve too. I just don't believe in the growth model anymore and there are a lot of connected parts of the system. So one of them that patches a leak in one part of the system just allows the system to keep growing. I'm losing my compassion every day as more people encroach upon my home. I just wasted the past three days trying to be nice helping someone out only to be taken advantage of but that's getting way off topic here. It's going to be a hard sell to convince me that synthetic meat is going to help humanity or anything in the long run.

I'm not a fan of the growth model either. But without GM it wouldn't have been a matter of growing or not growing. It would have been a matter of shrinking, very painfully, everywhere. If we can thank GM for the fact that half the human race didn't have to suffer that then I'll be able to thank it for the fact that non-human animals won't have to live their entire lives in cages. If that day ever comes.

The data show overwhelmingly that affluent nations - that is to say, those with a surplus - have lower, and still falling, fertility rates. So I think that Malthusian dystopia and indefinite growth - the two options you seem to propose - constitute a false antithesis. I'd like to see the human population stabilise simply because people aren't breeding like rabbits any more, rather than because famine has swept it. And realistically I think the only way to do that is to aid the development of the poorest parts of the world. That's gonna mean taking steps toward democracy and women's suffrage, skepticism toward faith-based medical and sexual disinformation...and enough food for everybody. Perhaps that's counter-intuitive, but like I said, the data bear it out.
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Re: How come I can't sell "veganism"?

Postby Graeme M on June 27th, 2017, 7:41 pm 

A short consideration of where we have come from, and where we might be going:

https://ourworldindata.org/a-history-of ... -5-charts/
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Re: How come I can't sell "veganism"?

Postby nameless on June 27th, 2017, 8:09 pm 

Graeme M » Fri Dec 09, 2016 3:39 am wrote:How come I can't sell "veganism"?

It's always difficult to sell (infect others with your 'belief infection') freakish cults. Ask any religion. 'Beliefs' MUST be spread/propagated, that is symptomatic of their nature! Sometimes it is easy, many are immune...
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Re: How come I can't sell "veganism"?

Postby Serpent on June 28th, 2017, 12:03 am 

nameless » June 27th, 2017, 7:09 pm wrote:
Graeme M » Fri Dec 09, 2016 3:39 am wrote:How come I can't sell "veganism"?

It's always difficult to sell (infect others with your 'belief infection') freakish cults. Ask any religion. 'Beliefs' MUST be spread/propagated, that is symptomatic of their nature! Sometimes it is easy, many are immune...

Would you care to elaborate on "infection" and "freakish cults"?
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Re: How come I can't sell "veganism"?

Postby Graeme M on June 28th, 2017, 1:42 am 

Perhaps eating animals is as much a "freakish cult"? Or at least, not just a gustatory behavior, as widely believed, but also an ideological one. People seem determined to believe that "carnism" is some kind of natural order, yet as we evolve culturally and socially, there may be other ways to evaluate that behaviour...

https://faunalytics.org/feature-article ... ting-meat/
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Re: How come I can't sell "veganism"?

Postby Lomax on June 28th, 2017, 9:56 am 

Given that nameless has been banned I guess it would be unfair to waste time replying to his comment. I say we just take it for, er, what it is.
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Re: How come I can't sell "veganism"?

Postby Serpent on June 28th, 2017, 12:49 pm 

I didn't know, then. Approve, though.
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Re: How come I can't sell "veganism"?

Postby edy420 on July 4th, 2017, 2:54 pm 

I'm not so sure about the stability of our modern society.
What happens if it all collapses (Trump is running things after all), and we become dependent on meat for survival.

Would vegans commit a moral crime, or starve to death?
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Re: How come I can't sell "veganism"?

Postby Serpent on July 4th, 2017, 3:30 pm 

edy420 » July 4th, 2017, 1:54 pm wrote:I'm not so sure about the stability of our modern society.
What happens if it all collapses (Trump is running things after all), and we become dependent on meat for survival.

How do you picture that coming to pass? By what stages? What kind of meat will be more available than plant-based food? Where? How many humans will be competing for each food source?

You know there isn't much left to hunt out there. The survivalists already have dibs on the wildlife and won't share with tenderfeet.
The economic collapse will include the collapse of the meat producing, packaging and transport industries, so people in cities won't be getting any nice steaks or skinlessbonelesschickenbreast in cellophane. Once they've slaughtered the cats, dogs, pigeons and rats, they'll have to start on one another. ...
or grow hydroponic spinach and rooftop tomatoes.

On the whole, I suspect, vegetarians and vegans will be at an advantage, since they have already made a dietary adaptation away from the standard North American model and learned how to balance plant-based nutrition for best results. In Asia, people have traditionally eaten much less meat and only recently began to add an unhealthy amount of beef and pork - and even that, not all classes and religions.
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Re: How come I can't sell "veganism"?

Postby Sivad on July 5th, 2017, 2:13 am 

Graeme M » June 27th, 2017, 10:42 pm wrote:Perhaps eating animals is as much a "freakish cult"? Or at least, not just a gustatory behavior, as widely believed, but also an ideological one. People seem determined to believe that "carnism" is some kind of natural order, yet as we evolve culturally and socially, there may be other ways to evaluate that behaviour...


For most people it's definitely pathological. I went vegan for one year just as a discipline, not for any ethical concerns, and when I would tell people what I was doing they would seem to get hostile and defensive for some reason, it was bizarre. That made it clear to me that we are still animals, we like dominating things. A big part of hunting, farming, slaughtering, tearing into things is that it makes us feel secure in our place in the great chain of being. Maybe somewhere in the collective unconscious we're still holding on to the time when we were constantly stalked and killed by predators, when nature was the enemy and we were at its mercy. Now the tables are turned and we're gonna fully lord it over on our vanquished enemy. It's not just eating meat, we're gonna breed out of control, we're gonna pollute and defile this thing that was so vicious to us for so long. We're gonna make it our bitch. It's not just primitive, it's primal belligerence. Who's your daddy?
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Re: How come I can't sell "veganism"?

Postby TheVat on July 5th, 2017, 9:48 am 

Don't forget monster trucks! I want to crush a Prius right now!

;-)
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Re: How come I can't sell "veganism"?

Postby Lomax on July 5th, 2017, 10:46 am 

Sivad » July 5th, 2017, 7:13 am wrote:
Graeme M » June 27th, 2017, 10:42 pm wrote:Perhaps eating animals is as much a "freakish cult"? Or at least, not just a gustatory behavior, as widely believed, but also an ideological one. People seem determined to believe that "carnism" is some kind of natural order, yet as we evolve culturally and socially, there may be other ways to evaluate that behaviour...


For most people it's definitely pathological. I went vegan for one year just as a discipline, not for any ethical concerns, and when I would tell people what I was doing they would seem to get hostile and defensive for some reason, it was bizarre. That made it clear to me that we are still animals, we like dominating things. A big part of hunting, farming, slaughtering, tearing into things is that it makes us feel secure in our place in the great chain of being. Maybe somewhere in the collective unconscious we're still holding on to the time when we were constantly stalked and killed by predators, when nature was the enemy and we were at its mercy. Now the tables are turned and we're gonna fully lord it over on our vanquished enemy. It's not just eating meat, we're gonna breed out of control, we're gonna pollute and defile this thing that was so vicious to us for so long. We're gonna make it our bitch. It's not just primitive, it's primal belligerence. Who's your daddy?

I think you're on to something. There's an obvious carnal instinct in us, and I think that helps explain the appeal of faux-meat to vegetarians. I found I was eating more pizza when I turned vegetarian, and it was not for the taste but the texture of the mozzarella as it hardened. I don't think we should be ashamed of our vicious impulses; I think we should just learn to harness them. I wouldn't wish for a nation of pacifists. But it takes strength and moxy to make a sacrifice - which is what veganism is - and we ought not to keep associating it with effeteness, cowardice, and epicene pallor. I think good could be done to the animal rights movement that way.
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Re: How come I can't sell "veganism"?

Postby Athena on July 5th, 2017, 11:58 am 

Graeme, potatoes are not good for diabetics. They are too many carbs which turn into high blood sugar.

Your explanation of vitamin B is nice, but what does it have to do with old age and excessive gas because what is eaten is not digesting well? I love all the gas causing foods and wouldn't mind eating them all the time. I was almost vegetarian, but the digestion and gas and pain problem are not tolerable. Also, I was experiencing fog brain and that has stopped since returning to eating meat.
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Re: How come I can't sell "veganism"?

Postby Athena on July 5th, 2017, 12:01 pm 

Lomax » July 5th, 2017, 8:46 am wrote:
I think you're on to something. There's an obvious carnal instinct in us, and I think that helps explain the appeal of faux-meat to vegetarians. I found I was eating more pizza when I turned vegetarian, and it was not for the taste but the texture of the mozzarella as it hardened. I don't think we should be ashamed of our vicious impulses; I think we should just learn to harness them. I wouldn't wish for a nation of pacifists. But it takes strength and moxy to make a sacrifice - which is what veganism is - and we ought not to keep associating it with effeteness, cowardice, and epicene pallor. I think good could be done to the animal rights movement that way.


I like what freezing tofu does to the texture of tofu.
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Re: How come I can't sell "veganism"?

Postby Lomax on July 5th, 2017, 1:11 pm 

Haven't tried it, but I will now.
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Re: How come I can't sell "veganism"?

Postby Serpent on July 5th, 2017, 2:00 pm 

Lomax » July 5th, 2017, 12:11 pm wrote:Haven't tried it, but I will now.

Tofu has no flavour and depends on seasoning. When it's been frozen and defrosted, you can squeeze out most of the water, leaving it spongy and better able to take up marinades and cooking sauces.

Regarding the gas effect of pulses: Chick peas and lentils of every kind, but especially the little yellow, orange and white daals, contain less of the oligosaccharides that cause gas.
Apparently, Beano is not a good solution for diabetics, but some people swear by pre-soaking beans in a baking soda solution, and I was taught always to discard the first two batches of cooking liquid. I don't know whether that helps - my grandmother swore by the tradition.
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Re: How come I can't sell "veganism"?

Postby NoShips on July 5th, 2017, 7:12 pm 

"Eat tofu", or in layman's terms "吃豆腐", means two things to the Chinese. One you already know. The second requires globes. Ask Lomax or a Chinese friend.
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Re: How come I can't sell "veganism"?

Postby NoShips on July 5th, 2017, 7:14 pm 

Serpent » July 6th, 2017, 3:00 am wrote:
Lomax » July 5th, 2017, 12:11 pm wrote:Haven't tried it, but I will now.

Tofu has no flavour and depends on seasoning.


WTF! You mean you've never tried "stinky tofu"? You haven't liiiivvveeeddddd, dude.

Drop by sometime. It's cheap and so am I.
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Re: How come I can't sell "veganism"?

Postby Athena on July 6th, 2017, 1:42 pm 

Looked up stinky tofu and got this page of what looks like a lot of delicious choices.

https://www.google.com/search?q=self+wa ... tinky+tofu
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