American justice is a crime

[edy420]

Criminals exist.
They are a part of every society and always will be.
But what we do with them, reflects on the members of that society.

Norway has the lowest reofending rates in the world.
Meaning they are successful at rehabilitating their criminals and releasing them back into the community.
They have an incarceration rate of 75 people per 100,000.
America locks away 707 people out of 100,000.

The difference is, Norway prisoners are treated like human beings.
Their cells are similar to a nice motel room.
American prisoners are treated like animals and their cells are more like dungeons.
Rehabilitation programs are very different too.

I think it's more important to help the brothers, who struggle to fit I to society.
This is why American justice is simply revenge, immoral and unjust.

[wolfhnd]

Comparing Norway to any other country is likely to be misleading. Norway has one of the best public health system and prison systems because it is a small country with lots of oil revenue. Don't believe the nationalistic jingoism that the U.S.is the richest country in the world. GDP per capita puts Norway 6th and the U.S. 10th. More importantly Norway is a homogeneous country with Scandinavian collectivist traditions. The U.S. is a country of isolated social groups that do not share ethnic identity, history, political orientation,nor aspirations.

It would be more insightful to compare the U.S. prison system with that of Russia. I'm not saying it should not be reformed only that it faces challenges Norway does not have.

In the reform of the prison system I would ask you to consider how a collectivist approach that is not color blind effects human agency. The price of individual freedom is individual responsibility. Part of that responsibility is the maintenance of individual property. As I said Scandinavian countries have a collectivist mentality that is impractical to expect a heterogenous country like the U.S. to be able to maintain. A large country such as the U.S. has fiscal responsibilities that it's diverse population will never be able to prioritize. Fully funding a humane prison system is not likely to be an exception.

[Serpent]

Russia?? With its heterogeneous, personal-liberty, property-valuing republican tradition? No, I don't see that as an apt comparison. Neither is Norway an apt comparison. However, if the US were looking to models that are more effective than its own current system, I hope they look to Norway, rather than Russia.

The administration of justice in a country depends on a several basic factors: 1. the social philosophy of that nation, 2. the cultural milieu in which its customs and attitudes are formed, 3. its historical development, 4. the framing of its laws, 5. the cause of criminal activities, 6. the purpose of the administration of justice and 7. the relative corruption of the organs of justice.

Chiefest among these is #1. Do we regard our fellow citizens as family, allies in a common endeavour, potential predators and enemies, or rivals? Is the social philosophy of the United States really enshrined in its constitution, shared by the majority of the population? Do most Americans even know what it says - or do they pick a half-sentence they like and ignore the rest? What social philosophy most closely resembles how America actually operates?

2. The US has at least three distinct cultural strains in its makeup, but the one dominant in the formation of its laws was English Colonial Protestant. Low tolerance of vice, weakness, non-conformity or moral laxity; a firm hand with wife, child and beast; strict hierarchy and stiff bearing. (The founders would be offended to their very marrow by the maudlin public emotionalism so much in vogue these days.) The Hispanic, African and Native American cultures are very different: there is bound to be some friction and much miscommunication.

3. Every country has its historical baggage. America has accumulated a lot of baggage in a relatively short time, and that affects every aspect of its social relations, including crime - its nature, its perpetrators, the law-abiding citizens' attitude to both, and the law-enforcement agencies'.

4. A lot of crime is created by the legislators. If you make it illegal to do what people can't help doing, they have no choice but to break the law. If you disallow their innate nature, people must either change, or break the law.

5. The nature of of criminal activity - besides actual people being made illegal - depends on all of the above, plus economics, plus outlook. When there are opportunities, crime decreases; when there is pessimism, it increases. If you don't give them a chance to earn a living legally, they have to do it illegally.

6. What the justice system is supposed to accomplish, and how great an effort is made to that end, ought to depend on the social philosophy. In America, it doesn't. They call prisons "correctional facilities", yet brazenly, in mass media, depict them as circles of hell, populated by un-human fiends, where underage car-thieves can expect to be beaten, raped, brutalized and scarred for life. With the number of death and life sentences, and the kinds of punishments meted out for victimless crimes, one can only surmise that they're really about revenge and not intended to do anything positive.

7. There is always some corruption. Politicizing the legal profession is bound to cause quite a lot more. The legal fee structures as they stand now make it impossible for poor people to get a fair hearing - or rich people, for that matter! As for privately owned and run prisons and juvenile facilities - well, who thought that was a good idea? Too much money and power involved in the administration of law is going to skew every aspect of it.

It's certainly easier, if we are genetically similar, to think in terms of one tribe, or one community, in which every member counts. Then we would bend every effort toward correcting and reclaiming each one who went astray. If we value property and think every other citizen is after what's ours, we're defensive and gear the justice system toward safeguarding the rightful owners (however we define 'rightful'). If we regard everyone who breaks the rules as an enemy, then the justice system is a vendetta system.
And if we pretend and say we're doing one thing while we do the opposite, it's never going to work at all.

[zetreque]

The difference is, Norway prisoners are treated like human beings.
Their cells are similar to a nice motel room.
American prisoners are treated like animals and their cells are more like dungeons.

I'd be skeptical that that's the reason the re-offending rate is low.

Given the economic situation in the US, there would probably be more re-offenses or first time offenders to go back to prison if they were nice motel rooms. To some it might be jail, but at least they are off the streets and fed.

[Serpent]

It's not the niceness of the rooms that makes Norway's system work. It's the socialization, remedial education, occupational training, job-placement and psychological counseling.

If you really want to rehabilitate people who have committed crimes, you have to understand why did it (Well, first, you should make sure they did do it: the US has a very high rate of wrongful convictions) and then try to figure out how to prevent them doing it again. If a prison record makes it impossible to hold down a job, you pretty much guarantee recidivism.

[Lomax]

The justice system of America is perhaps the least just thing about it. If we are going to compare the American justice system to that of another country, we might choose China, Nigeria, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Iran, or the Democratic Republic of Congo. Does anybody know what all those countries have in common?

[Serpent]

Extreme sanction? And in some cases, years of incarceration and torture without arraignment or trial.

[zetreque]

Can you speak out against the president of those countries, demonstrate civil disobedience, go to jail and get right out?
https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/201 ... story.html

[wolfhnd]

The best thing we can do to reform the prison system is to reduce the number of prisoners. The best way to reduce the number of prisoners is to restore the two parent family.

http://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archiv ... me/265860/

[Lomax]

Extreme sanction? And in some cases, years of incarceration and torture without arraignment or trial.

Good guess. They are, in common with the United States, the only countries in the world which still execute their own children.

[Serpent]

No guess, just a little gallows humour.

Whether you're allowed to protest against it (in a fenced, designated area, surrounded by police taking names) is really not the central issue of how well a justice system works or whether it fulfills its stated mandate.

And for the men in their 50's and 60's who have been unfairly detained most of their lives, it's a tad too late to get mommy and daddy back together. For the next generation, it might be helpful not to waste so many fathers on wars, drug addiction and incarceration.

[TheVat]

The best thing we can do to reform the prison system is to reduce the number of prisoners. The best way to reduce the number of prisoners is to restore the two parent family.

http://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archiv ... me/265860/

or focus on non-incarceration penalties for nonviolent crime. Imprisonment should only be a response to threat of bodily harm to others. And that shift would restore a large number of 2 parent households right there. Also, separate vice from crime, treat debilitating vices as illness, let social consequences deal with the rest. Also, end private prison contracts with states, remove corporate profit from the equation. Finally, end solitary confinement, which is cruel and counterproductive, if one is supposedly trying to rehab an antisocial person.

[wolfhnd]

We have a Volunteer military with an extraordinary low death rate, drug's are illegal, and the vast majority of people in prison are not there because they stole a loaf of bread.

Adopting a victim mentally never helped anyone. Absolute poverty is almost a thing of the past and most people have access to enough access to information that there is little excuse for believing the narrative that they have no alternative but to adopt a criminal lifestyle.

The foundation of any republic is a self discipline population and the key to freedom the agency that comes from self reliance and a responsible lifestyle.

[wolfhnd]

The best thing we can do to reform the prison system is to reduce the number of prisoners. The best way to reduce the number of prisoners is to restore the two parent family.

http://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archiv ... me/265860/

or focus on non-incarceration penalties for nonviolent crime. Imprisonment should only be a response to threat of bodily harm to others. And that shift would restore a large number of 2 parent households right there. Also, separate vice from crime, treat debilitating vices as illness, let social consequences deal with the rest. Also, end private prison contracts with states, remove corporate profit from the equation. Finally, end solitary confinement, which is cruel and counterproductive, if one is supposedly trying to rehab an antisocial person.

Those reforms are needed but if our goal is to help as many people as possible then they are a second tier concern. The first goal should be to prevent criminal life styles not reform criminals.

Keep in mind that most criminals are not even in prison but to a large extent preying on the most vulnerable people in society. Under those circumstances it seems a bit cynical to make criminals even the non violent ones the primary victim's.

[Lomax]

We have a Volunteer military with an extraordinary low death rate, drug's are illegal, and the vast majority of people in prison are not there because they stole a loaf of bread.

Most of them didn't steal anything at all. Nearly half are inside for drug "offenses", and a further tenth are inside for migration. Consequently the US has the highest incarceration rate in the world as well as the largest prison population in absolute numbers.

The foundation of any republic is a self discipline population

Well then I guess the US defies gravity. Clearly the population is not self-disciplined.

[wolfhnd]

We have a Volunteer military with an extraordinary low death rate, drug's are illegal, and the vast majority of people in prison are not there because they stole a loaf of bread.

Most of them didn't steal anything at all. Nearly half are inside for drug "offenses", and a further tenth are inside for migration. Consequently the US has the highest incarceration rate in the world as well as the largest prison population in absolute numbers.

The foundation of any republic is a self discipline population

Well then I guess the US defies gravity. Clearly the population is not self-disciplined.

http://felonvoting.procon.org/view.reso ... eID=004339

[wolfhnd]

The problem with the left's narrative on criminality is collective responsibility and collective victimhood. Most of the people in prison belong there and most of the people that are not in prison are not responsible for the choices that criminals made to become incarcerated.

Denying that we have a criminality problem and focussing to heavily on prison reform is both impractical and nearsighted.

[wolfhnd]

Somewhere around 20 percent of prisoners in the US are there for drug convictions. That of course is only half of the story. The connection between the illegality of drugs and a breakdown in social institutions is best illustrated by prohibition. Prohibition not only created violent criminal environments but corrupted the justice system and politics. The war on drugs has had similar influences over the last half century. Raising the question of how much crime is actually related to the criminalization of drugs.

The organized distribution of narcotics started during prohibition because the criminal distribution system for alcohol was ready made for expansion into other drugs. What is worth noting is that the legalization of alcohol did not end the organized narcotics trade. It would be reasonable to assume that legalizing drugs such as marijuana will follow the same pattern. This evidence makes many people believe that the total decriminalization of all drugs is therefore the only rational choice.

Decriminalizing drugs of course will not end the misery they inflict as witnessed by the problems associated with alcohol abuse. Rehabilitation and treatment of drug abuse will necessarily have to go hand in hand with decriminalization. Portugal has had some success with this process and could serve as an example.

Since drug abuse effects people across the social stratum I believe that we need to look at why people are so unhappy that turn to drugs. Again an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Part of the art of happiness relates to self discipline and sell reliance virtues not currently taught in our educational system nor families. The socialist paradise of Great Britain is the second most addicted population. Apparently only surpassed by the theocratic utopia of Iran.

Btw I only access the internet from my phone these days so don't expect well written responses.

[Lomax]

Your responses were well-written and well-informed. It's good to see you concede the perversion of the justice system imposed by the "war on drugs", although it ought to be noted that the justice system itself is not free of responsibility. It's up to those within the system, regardless of the national legislation to which they are beholden, to prioritise and pursue as they see fit. To take an acute example from my own socialist utopia, the Durham Police and Crime Commissioner Ron Hogg recently made a much-publicised announcement that his department would not be making an effort to prosecute cannabis possession anymore (despite the fact that it is still a crime here). The US system's obsession with recreational drug use reflected in its 20% figure (on which I stand corrected) seems somewhat absurd to me.

But there are further things I don't understand. Why does the 4-place gap on the world rankings - a list of more than 200 - of per capita income render Norway and the US an inappropriate comparison? That's almost as close on the list as we can possibly ask. Why is the Left's focus on collective identity harmful - in the long run - if precisely the advantage that Norway has over the US is its collectivist philosophy? To put your statements together it would seem you urge a reinforcement of exactly the outgroup hostility you believe mires the US in violence and incarceration.

Here's why your country needs to stop denying that it already lays enough stress on its criminality problem, and needs to start focusing on prison reform. The US Department of Justice itself finds that its stricter practices increase recidivism rates. The justice system, with its absurd mix of pot smokers, Mexicans and murderers, its flippant attitude to its own extreme rape culture, and its cruel and unusual punishments which put it in bed with its counterparts in Iran and Saudi Arabia, manufactures criminals.

Now the reason I kicked off with the issue of the slaughter of children is this: what better evidence can there be that the system is designed for revenge, rather than pragmatism, than that it convicts and then puts down offenders who have not even - by the principles established in the nation's own body of law - finished developing into their full selves yet?

[Serpent]

Would this be an opportune moment to mention selective enforcement, arrest, conviction and sentencing?

Really, the main question should not be "Who is to blame?" - a common American preoccupation, I've noticed - but:
Is it working?
How can we tell whether it's working, unless we know what it's supposed to do?
OK. What's it supposed to do?



Well, then, could we make it do that any better?

[wolfhnd]

Would this be an opportune moment to mention selective enforcement, arrest, conviction and sentencing?

Really, the main question should not be "Who is to blame?" - a common American preoccupation, I've noticed - but:
Is it working?
How can we tell whether it's working, unless we know what it's supposed to do?
OK. What's it supposed to do?



Well, then, could we make it do that any better?

When you are dealing with problems of this complexity the answer to who to blame is always everyone and no one in particular. That said defining the objectives of reform seems like a good idea :-)

[Serpent]

Nononono No!
Don't define the objectives of reform.
Define the objectives of the justice system.

[Athena]

Criminals exist.
They are a part of every society and always will be.
But what we do with them, reflects on the members of that society.

Norway has the lowest reofending rates in the world.
Meaning they are successful at rehabilitating their criminals and releasing them back into the community.
They have an incarceration rate of 75 people per 100,000.
America locks away 707 people out of 100,000.

The difference is, Norway prisoners are treated like human beings.
Their cells are similar to a nice motel room.
American prisoners are treated like animals and their cells are more like dungeons.
Rehabilitation programs are very different too.

I think it's more important to help the brothers, who struggle to fit I to society.
This is why American justice is simply revenge, immoral and unjust.

That was a pretty strong post, saying the greatest nation that ever was, treats its criminal offenders like animals, not humans. There are two ways I would like to go with this.

It is human nature to see the world as us against them. We have a million ways of figuring out who is one of us and deserving and who is one of them and not deserving. We organize ourselves in a hierarchy of status and power, and then justify why we deserve more than them. Sometimes the division is religion, or nationality, or race, or economics- who owns what, and always status- management versus laborer. And we have no problem exploiting those who can be exploited. We have created a very harsh reality for the poor and as cities fill up or when the economy turns down, things get even harsher, and even when people are starving to death, and their children are seriously deprived, some yell don't give them any government assistance because it will make the dependent on the government. A convicted criminal is simply someone who has no legal right to defend his life in any way. This is only a matter a degree. We in the Great United States have not achieved the humanitarian society we want to believe have.

On the other hand, the original purpose of free public education was to prepare everyone for citizenship. There is no doubt this preparation for citizenship was indoctrination as surely as religions indoctrinate everyone. For most of civilized history, religion was the only mass education, and it was politically controlled assuring the final product (human) was a good product and not a cheap knockoff or heretic. I have no problem with such indoctrination because it is essential to civilization. However, I strongly prefer it be secular indoctrination that makes the young fit for society and thereby advances the nation and maintains good social order with as little money spent on law enforcement as possible. That is social order with culture, not authority over the people.

If you interpret what I have said as I hope you will, we need to return to education for citizenship, and we need to work on our humanity so no one lives like an abandoned dog. Education for the liberty and justice of all. We also need to replace autocratic industry with democratic industry. That is we need to work on our attitude toward other human beings, and perhaps feel a little ashamed of ourselves when we tolerate another being treated badly.

PS I considered being a probation officer. In college, I researched this possibility and determined I could never be part of that very sick system. I am so glad others think the system needs changing!

[Athena]

Nononono No!
Don't define the objectives of reform.
Define the objectives of the justice system.

We are on the same page.

What is really sick in the US is the large number of people in prison who have mental problems, and would have been put in mental institutions before Reagon closed them down. Now surely you all heard horror stories of mental institutions, but there were good ones, and no reason we can not have good ones. The horror stories of prisons are just as bad if not worse, and this is made possible by failure to pay attention to them and what is happening inside.

The prison industry became a profit industry and this lead to a mandate of large prison populations, which in turn lead to a war on drugs and locking up anyone involved with drugs and also immigrants.

How for-profit prison corporations shape immigrant detention and ...
http://www.afsc.org/.../how-profit-pris ... orations...
American Friends Service Committee

How for-profit prison corporations shape immigrant detention and ... percent of the world's prisoners.3 Between 1970 and 2009, as a result of the “war on drugs,” ...

Private Prisons | American Civil Liberties Union
https://www.aclu.org/issues/mass.../private-prisons

American Civil Liberties Union
The War on Drugs · Racial Disparities in Criminal Justice · Privatization of ... ACLU: DOJ Private-Prison Decision Signals End to Texas' Immigrant Prisons.

[PDF]Too Good to be True – Private Prisons - The Sentencing Project
sentencingproject.org/.../Too-Good-to-be-True-Private-Prisons-in-...
Sentencing Project

The number of federal prisoners held in private prisons rose from. 3,828 to ... privatization. The War on Drugs and harsher sentencing policies, including ... detain undocumented immigrants.8 These forms of privatization “on the 'soft' end.

Just How Much The War On Drugs Impacts Our Overcrowded Prisons ...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.../war-o ... raphic_n...

The Huffington Post
Mar 10, 2014 - America's prisons are dangerously overcrowded, and the war on drugs is ... crimes — drugs and immigration — make up over 60 percent of the U.S. ... For Child Abuse After Alleged Incident On Private Plane (UPDATED) ...
The multibillion-dollar immigrant detention industry | Street Roots
news.streetroots.org/2016/07/21/multibillion-dollar-immigrant-detention-industry

Jul 21, 2016 - Private prisons have become the sole focus of Enlace's campaign efforts. Enlace ... what they call the “war on immigrants” to the war on drugs.
Related: How private prisons are profiting from locking up US immigrants
https://news.vice.com/.../how-private-p ... -up-us-i...

Vice
Oct 6, 2015 - How Private Prisons Are Profiting From Locking Up US Immigrants ..... only jumped on the band wagon of the War on Drugs to fund his little war ...

This is the kind of thing we can expect from education that began specializing everyone in 1958. We get to such horrors by relying on the specialist to tell us what to do. What is happening in our prisons is not a community decision. We the people feel no responsibility for the horrors being committed, because that is up to the experts and the bureaucrats. It is not our responsibility, is it?

[Athena]

Your responses were well-written and well-informed. It's good to see you concede the perversion of the justice system imposed by the "war on drugs", although it ought to be noted that the justice system itself is not free of responsibility. It's up to those within the system, regardless of the national legislation to which they are beholden, to prioritise and pursue as they see fit. To take an acute example from my own socialist utopia, the Durham Police and Crime Commissioner Ron Hogg recently made a much-publicised announcement that his department would not be making an effort to prosecute cannabis possession anymore (despite the fact that it is still a crime here). The US system's obsession with recreational drug use reflected in its 20% figure (on which I stand corrected) seems somewhat absurd to me.

But there are further things I don't understand. Why does the 4-place gap on the world rankings - a list of more than 200 - of per capita income render Norway and the US an inappropriate comparison? That's almost as close on the list as we can possibly ask. Why is the Left's focus on collective identity harmful - in the long run - if precisely the advantage that Norway has over the US is its collectivist philosophy? To put your statements together it would seem you urge a reinforcement of exactly the outgroup hostility you believe mires the US in violence and incarceration.

Here's why your country needs to stop denying that it already lays enough stress on its criminality problem, and needs to start focusing on prison reform. The US Department of Justice itself finds that its stricter practices increase recidivism rates. The justice system, with its absurd mix of pot smokers, Mexicans and murderers, its flippant attitude to its own extreme rape culture, and its cruel and unusual punishments which put it in bed with its counterparts in Iran and Saudi Arabia, manufactures criminals.

Now the reason I kicked off with the issue of the slaughter of children is this: what better evidence can there be that the system is designed for revenge, rather than pragmatism, than that it convicts and then puts down offenders who have not even - by the principles established in the nation's own body of law - finished developing into their full selves yet?

Good point. How about comparing the US and Norway in other ways, like health care and social services.

World Health Organization Ranking; The World’s Health Systems

1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 USA
38 Slovenia
39 Cuba
40 Brunei
http://thepatientfactor.com/canadian-he ... h-systems/

This link compares other measures of well being and the US is not at the top.
https://www.oecd.org/els/family/43570328.pdf

[Serpent]

So, have we decided?
What is the purpose of the criminal justice system?

[mtbturtle]

So, have we decided?
What is the purpose of the criminal justice system?

Shouldn't it be purposes?

[Serpent]

Whichever. Just so you're clear on what you are hoping to accomplish.
Only then can you begin to formulate a plan.

[mtbturtle]

Whichever. Just so you're clear on what you are hoping to accomplish.
Only then can you begin to formulate a plan.

??????

[Serpent]

Soyez clair sur ce que vous espérez accomplir. Ensuite, élaborer un plan.