Is Discrimination Always Wrong?

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Is Discrimination Always Wrong?

Postby ronjanec on March 28th, 2016, 3:00 pm 

http://www.businesspundit.com/donald-tr ... s-03-2016/

As the first generation child of an immigrant myself, I am as you can imagine very pro-immigration personally, and I believe that this is actually one of the biggest reasons for America becoming the great nation that it is today;

When my mom came over from Ireland, she came through Ellis Island, and could not enter the country until the authorities there said that she was ok after checking her out personally for a number of different things, and I personally believe that our ancestors had the right idea in doing it this way;

I believe Trump has said something to the effect that he does not want to let any more Muslims into our country until we can figure out a better system for vetting them, and by doing so, he is being accused of discriminating against people of the Islamic faith?

Is he? Well yes, according to the proper definition of the same word, he is most definitely doing this against people of the Islamic faith who want to immigrate to the US. So is "discrimination" always a bad thing even when there is logical evidence to support this particular way of thinking and acting?

Well first, let's be perfectly honest here people: Everyone does this discrimination thing right? Not you!? Not ever!? I really hate to call anyone a liar, so how about if I call you a big fibber instead? When you travel to certain cities like Chicago, do you avoid the Black neighborhoods entirely? Sounds rather discriminatory to me.

I personally do not like having to single out any particular group of people that is different from myself, but we have a very serious problem in the world right now where people who overwhelmingly claim to be Muslims or people of the Islamic faith, are attacking other people all over the world through very serious terrorist acts;

So while this is still very unfortunate, it does make logical and commen sense to discriminate against people of the Islamic faith by properly vetting everyone who tries to immigrate to our country, to prevent the terrorists amongst them from coming into our country and then harming our citizens like Trump is saying here.

Are all Muslims bad because of the terrorists who also claim to be Muslims? Of course not, and only an idiot would say something like this;

I believe that the vast majority of people of the Islamic faith are decent people(and by the way, we have many Muslims living in the high rise condo complex where I live here in Chicago, so I am personally familiar with living with people of this same religious faith on a daily basis);

But that does not mean that we should avoid wisely "separating the wheat from the chaff" so to speak in our country's immigration policies at least for awhile, simply to avoid being called discriminatory against the same group of people.

So Trump is not a terrible guy, and his supporters are not necessarily anti-Muslim, for saying that we should discriminate against people of the same religious background by holding off on letting any people of the Islamic faith immigrate to our country at least for a short time, or until we are fairly certain that we can properly screen them and in the same process and protect our nation's citizens and children from harm;

Or in an effort to try avoid in our country the same type of multiple terrorist attacks(and also greatly increased criminal activity) that has very recently been occurring in Europe with their ridiculous "open borders" policies.

(I am now thinking after starting this comment here, that I should have placed this instead in the "Ethics" forum. If any of the mods agree with me, could you please move this and also title it "Is Discrimination always wrong?" Thanks)
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Re: Is Discrimination Always Wrong?

Postby mtbturtle on March 28th, 2016, 5:45 pm 

I think we should start by rounding up Christians. More Christian terrorists around me than Muslims that's for sure.
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Re: Is Discrimination Always Wrong?

Postby ronjanec on March 28th, 2016, 6:26 pm 

mtbturtle » Mon Mar 28, 2016 3:45 pm wrote:I think we should start by rounding up Christians. More Christian terrorists around me than Muslims that's for sure.


Then you and the professor should move down here to Chicago mtbturtle: Admittedly, we have our own problems down here, but at least we do not have to be concerned about any of those "Christian terrorists" that you are talking about up there!

Our biggest problem down here is instead the Liberal/Progressive terrorists who are doing a great job in ruining our wonderful city.

By the way, thank you for starting the new thread for me mtbturtle.
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Re: Is Discrimination Always Wrong?

Postby mtbturtle on March 28th, 2016, 6:30 pm 

Careful Ron your compassion as a Christian might just overwhelm us Atheists. I think we should start by rounding up you.
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Re: Is Discrimination Always Wrong?

Postby mtbturtle on March 28th, 2016, 6:37 pm 

More likely to be shot by a family member who owns a gun or struck by lightening than to be harmed by a Muslim terrorist.
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Re: Is Discrimination Always Wrong?

Postby ronjanec on March 28th, 2016, 6:39 pm 

mtbturtle » Mon Mar 28, 2016 4:30 pm wrote:Careful Ron your compassion as a Christian might just overwhelm us Atheists. I think we should start by rounding up you.


Well ok, but please remember that many of us Christians are known to be "packing very serious heat", and are also very good shots, while you Liberal/Progressives are instead known for driving Volvos.
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Re: Is Discrimination Always Wrong?

Postby TheVat on March 28th, 2016, 6:39 pm 

Heard of the 14th amendment, Ron? The equal protection clause?

5th amendment? Due process clause?

Trashing the US Constitution is akin to "burning down a village to save it."
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Re: Is Discrimination Always Wrong?

Postby mtbturtle on March 28th, 2016, 6:52 pm 

Braininvat » Mon Mar 28, 2016 5:39 pm wrote:Heard of the 14th amendment, Ron? The equal protection clause?

5th amendment? Due process clause?

Trashing the US Constitution is akin to "burning down a village to save it."


It's not the first time we've done it, I suspect we will do it again.
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Re: Is Discrimination Always Wrong?

Postby ronjanec on March 28th, 2016, 6:55 pm 

Braininvat » Mon Mar 28, 2016 4:39 pm wrote:Heard of the 14th amendment, Ron? The equal protection clause?

5th amendment? Due process clause?

Trashing the US Constitution is akin to "burning down a village to save it."


I honestly do not see the relevance of what you are trying to say here Biv: We are again talking about US immigration policy, and non US citizens?
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Re: Is Discrimination Always Wrong?

Postby BadgerJelly on March 28th, 2016, 7:34 pm 

Use of discrimination to get more votes will always be wrong in my eyes.

To possess prejudices and discriminate against people due to prejudice is perfectly human. In that sense it is neither right or wrong just one more thing we need to address as individual human beings.

Youtube - Stewart Lee Islamaphobia ;)
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Re: Is Discrimination Always Wrong?

Postby ronjanec on March 28th, 2016, 8:21 pm 

BadgerJelly » Mon Mar 28, 2016 5:34 pm wrote:Use of discrimination to get more votes will always be wrong in my eyes.

To possess prejudices and discriminate against people due to prejudice is perfectly human. In that sense it is neither right or wrong just one more thing we need to address as individual human beings.

Youtube - Stewart Lee Islamaphobia ;)


BJ,

Donald Trump has received a lot of criticism in my country for correctly stating that we must be very careful when it comes to Muslim immigration into the US, because off the very real possibility of a large number of ISIS terrorists sneaking into the country and causing many of our citizens harm;

Unless you are living under a rock, you should know that this exact scenario has just happened in Europe in recent months, and he was basically saying that we should stop all Muslim immigration into the US until we can figure out a much better way to prevent in the US what has again just happened very recently in Europe.

So this is not just simply "use of discrimination to get more votes", this is a candidate for President of the United States saying we need a much more coherent and stricter immigration policy than the one that we have now, and in particular our immigration policy regarding people of the Islamic faith.
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Re: Is Discrimination Always Wrong?

Postby BadgerJelly on March 29th, 2016, 12:40 am 

I'm sorry it is utter nonsense. I have absolutely nothing more to say on the subject other than what I've said already. I am not here to fuel some halfwit irresponsible propaganda, I am here to point at it and say "Look how dumb this is. Get a grip."
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Re: Is Discrimination Always Wrong?

Postby ronjanec on March 29th, 2016, 8:13 am 

BadgerJelly » Mon Mar 28, 2016 10:40 pm wrote:I'm sorry it is utter nonsense. I have absolutely nothing more to say on the subject other than what I've said already. I am not here to fuel some halfwit irresponsible propaganda, I am here to point at it and say "Look how dumb this is. Get a grip."


Well, everyone is entitled to their opinion BJ...
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Re: Is Discrimination Always Wrong?

Postby Natural ChemE on March 29th, 2016, 8:13 am 

ronjanec,

Great discussion topic! It's interesting, controversial, involved, and... well, fairly uncomfortable for most. Unfortunately it's so uncomfortable that it may be inappropriate for a general audience.

I'd suggest considering how Americans, Europeans, etc. get meat. While some conservatives pride themselves on being able to look an animal like a cow in the eyes before killing and cooking it - a rite of passage in some ranching contexts - they're in the minority, and most folks really dislike that mentality. I suspect that you'll find that most folks don't connect ordering a chicken sandwich with snapping a chicken's neck.

Handling discrimination in this context is one of those how-the-sausage-gets-made things. It'd be a hard topic to have a mature discussion about.
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Re: Is Discrimination Always Wrong?

Postby mtbturtle on March 29th, 2016, 8:24 am 

There is not a very large possibility of ISIS terrorist sneaking into the country as refugees. Lies, Fear, Hate, the new Christianity.
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Re: Is Discrimination Always Wrong?

Postby ronjanec on March 29th, 2016, 9:25 am 

Thanks NCE,

I know. But as a supporter of Donald Trump for President, I wanted to at least try to show that there is perhaps an other side to Trump's comments on this same issue, and one that he has been heavily criticized for by the main stream media and many others.

As recently as last year, many people in Europe were also "uncomfortable" about openly discussing and then criticizing their respective governments "politically correct" open borders immigration policies, and then were subsequently inundated with over a million and a half immigrants, and possibly hundreds of ISIS terrorists amongst them.

Still, and like you just mentioned, maybe our forum is not the proper place for a very controversial discussion like this, and I have absolutely no problem with you, or any of the other moderators locking the thread.
Last edited by ronjanec on March 29th, 2016, 9:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is Discrimination Always Wrong?

Postby TheVat on March 29th, 2016, 9:32 am 

ronjanec » March 28th, 2016, 3:55 pm wrote:
Braininvat » Mon Mar 28, 2016 4:39 pm wrote:Heard of the 14th amendment, Ron? The equal protection clause?

5th amendment? Due process clause?

Trashing the US Constitution is akin to "burning down a village to save it."


I honestly do not see the relevance of what you are trying to say here Biv: We are again talking about US immigration policy, and non US citizens?


In those amendments' wording, and in SCOTUS rulings for the past century, it's clear that equal protection and due process clauses apply generally to "persons," i.e. all citzens and non-citizens who fall under any kind of U.S. jurisdiction. It has been extended, therefore, to foreign nationals seeking citizenship in the country. While non-citizens who are are applying from outside our borders are a gray area, I think we will have serious problems with two standards for those two sets of foreign nationals, especially as regards criteria for citizenship that run counter to our separation of church and state. I recommend you read up on Constitutional law and its importance to our national identity.
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Re: Is Discrimination Always Wrong?

Postby ronjanec on March 29th, 2016, 10:02 am 

mtbturtle » Tue Mar 29, 2016 6:24 am wrote:There is not a very large possibility of ISIS terrorist sneaking into the country as refugees. Lies, Fear, Hate, the new Christianity.


Well, I certainly hope you are right about this mtbturtle.
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Re: Is Discrimination Always Wrong?

Postby ronjanec on March 29th, 2016, 10:07 am 

Braininvat » Tue Mar 29, 2016 7:32 am wrote:
ronjanec » March 28th, 2016, 3:55 pm wrote:
Braininvat » Mon Mar 28, 2016 4:39 pm wrote:Heard of the 14th amendment, Ron? The equal protection clause?

5th amendment? Due process clause?

Trashing the US Constitution is akin to "burning down a village to save it."


I honestly do not see the relevance of what you are trying to say here Biv: We are again talking about US immigration policy, and non US citizens?


In those amendments' wording, and in SCOTUS rulings for the past century, it's clear that equal protection and due process clauses apply generally to "persons," i.e. all citzens and non-citizens who fall under any kind of U.S. jurisdiction. It has been extended, therefore, to foreign nationals seeking citizenship in the country. While non-citizens who are are applying from outside our borders are a gray area, I think we will have serious problems with two standards for those two sets of foreign nationals, especially as regards criteria for citizenship that run counter to our separation of church and state. I recommend you read up on Constitutional law and its importance to our national identity.


Well, irrespective of what you are trying to say here Biv, this is all a moot point unless Donald Trump gets elected right? And even then, he will of course have to follow the particulars of our Constitutional laws no matter what he says during the campaign.

By the way, where did you get "the great idea" to have that really ugly chimp as your new avatar? :)
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Re: Is Discrimination Always Wrong?

Postby Serpent on March 29th, 2016, 10:50 am 

I believe Trump has said something to the effect that he does not want to let any more Muslims into our country until we can figure out a better system for vetting them, and by doing so, he is being accused of discriminating against people of the Islamic faith?

Is he? Well yes, according to the proper definition of the same word, he is most definitely doing this against people of the Islamic faith who want to immigrate to the US. So is "discrimination" always a bad thing even when there is logical evidence to support this particular way of thinking and acting?

Well first, let's be perfectly honest here people: Everyone does this discrimination thing right? Not you!? Not ever!? I really hate to call anyone a liar, so how about if I call you a big fibber instead? When you travel to certain cities like Chicago, do you avoid the Black neighborhoods entirely? Sounds rather discriminatory to me.

This appears to be the kernel of the argument. It contains two major misconceptions - or, more accurately, misconstruals.

Public/ Private.
An individual has no constitutional or legal obligation to like everyone equally, or to refrain from shunning any particular groups of people in private life. He may discriminate all he wants to. However, at work, he may not promote one employee over another because he prefers their colour or gender; he may not refuse to serve them in his restaurant or change the rent in his apartment building according to the tenant's religion.

Selecting by person/ category. A nation may be choosy about whom it lets in, based on their criminal record, affiliations or occupation; it may even set quotas and turn people away because the quota for thet year has been filled. What it may not do is declare an entire group of people non grata, based on their race, nationality, religion or place of origin.
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Re: Is Discrimination Always Wrong?

Postby wolfhnd on March 29th, 2016, 11:29 am 

The following is the testimony of a practicing Muslim before the PARLIAMENT of CANADA


Mr. Salim Mansur (Professor of Political Science, University of Western Ontario, As an Individual):
Madam Chair and honourable members, many thanks for inviting me to share my thoughts with the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration.

I appear before you as a common citizen deeply apprehensive and concerned about the drift of our country as it changes due to the rate of immigration, which is without precedent among any of the advanced liberal democracies of the west. My expertise, or to the extent my expertise is recognized by this committee, at which I have been invited to appear, is that of a professional academic, researcher, writer, author, and public intellectual of some recognition in this great country of ours. I'm proud and humbled to come before you as an unhyphenated Canadian.

Before I share with you my perspective on immigration, let me state at the outset that I support all measures under consideration that modern technology provides for securing our borders, monitoring those who seek to gain entry into Canada, those who arrive here without proper documentation and claim refugee status, and the legions of those outside Canada who want to come here as immigrants. I believe it is a no-brainer to work towards a more secure Canada and to implement smart cards, biometric systems, and other tools that are available now or will be in the future.

I have no doubt on this matter that were we to have the thoughts of our founding fathers inform us, and those remarkable leaders who have come after them, such as Laurier and King, Pearson and Trudeau, Knowles and Douglas, they would remind us that a constitution agreed upon by a free people to provide for, as John A. Macdonald put it, “peace, order and good government”, is not a suicide pact.

In the small amount of time I have before you, I want to stress upon the first principle behind the immigration policy as it has evolved since the country's centennial year and as it presently stands.

It is needless to remark that Canada is an immigrant country. Our history tells us, as we should know, that it was immigrants from Europe over the past several centuries who built this country. On the whole, they built it well, indeed so well that Canada has come to be an eagerly sought country for people from around the world, including me. Here is the point: at some stage of Canada's historical development since at least 1867, those who built Canada in the early years of its history could have reached an agreement to close the door to immigration, but they did not. They believed the strength of their country would be maintained through a judicious policy of accepting new immigrants from Europe. The key point I want to emphasize, and I have written about this at length in the public media, is that they all believed that immigration judiciously and carefully managed, and I emphasize “managed”, in terms of numbers and source of origin of immigrants should be such that the nature of Canada as a liberal democracy would not be undermined.

It is numbers and the nature of numbers that matter and, given the nature of things, determine how existing arrangements are secured or undermined. Since the open-door immigration policy was instituted around the time of Canada's centennial year, the nature of immigration into Canada started to change from what had been the pattern since before 1867 to around 1960. During the past 50 years, immigration from outside of Europe, from what is generally designated the third world, has rapidly increased in proportion to immigrants originating in Europe.

Furthermore, given the revolution in transportation and the introduction of wide-body transcontinental jetliners that have made mass travel economical and easy, the distinction between immigrant and migrant workers has been eliminated. This means—and it is not simply in reference to ethnicity—that Canada is rapidly changing culturally in ways our political elite, media elite, and academic elite do not want to discuss. The fact that this is not discussed or that it is driven under the carpet does not mean the public is not keenly aware of how much the country has changed in great measure in a relatively short period. If this pattern continues for another few decades, there's the likelihood that Canada will have changed irrevocably, and not necessarily for the better in terms of its political tradition as a liberal democracy.

In terms of the first principle, we need our governing institutions and those individuals we, as Canadians, send to represent us to boldly re-examine our existing immigration policy and rethink it in terms of what it represents and how it will affect the well-being of Canada in the years to come. I do not need to remind you that any policy, however benign or good the intent is behind the making of such policy, is riddled with unintended consequences. History is a paradox. What you intend is not how things turn out in the long run, and not even in the short term. Pick any example you want, think it through, and see for yourself the paradoxical nature of history and how it surprises us by confounding our expectations.
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Re: Is Discrimination Always Wrong?

Postby ronjanec on March 29th, 2016, 12:12 pm 

Serpent » Tue Mar 29, 2016 8:50 am wrote:
I believe Trump has said something to the effect that he does not want to let any more Muslims into our country until we can figure out a better system for vetting them, and by doing so, he is being accused of discriminating against people of the Islamic faith?

Is he? Well yes, according to the proper definition of the same word, he is most definitely doing this against people of the Islamic faith who want to immigrate to the US. So is "discrimination" always a bad thing even when there is logical evidence to support this particular way of thinking and acting?

Well first, let's be perfectly honest here people: Everyone does this discrimination thing right? Not you!? Not ever!? I really hate to call anyone a liar, so how about if I call you a big fibber instead? When you travel to certain cities like Chicago, do you avoid the Black neighborhoods entirely? Sounds rather discriminatory to me.

This appears to be the kernel of the argument. It contains two major misconceptions - or, more accurately, misconstruals.

Public/ Private.
An individual has no constitutional or legal obligation to like everyone equally, or to refrain from shunning any particular groups of people in private life. He may discriminate all he wants to. However, at work, he may not promote one employee over another because he prefers their colour or gender; he may not refuse to serve them in his restaurant or change the rent in his apartment building according to the tenant's religion.

Selecting by person/ category. A nation may be choosy about whom it lets in, based on their criminal record, affiliations or occupation; it may even set quotas and turn people away because the quota for thet year has been filled. What it may not do is declare an entire group of people non grata, based on their race, nationality, religion or place of origin.


While I personally agree with what you are saying here in the Public/ Private paragraph Serpent, your implying that Trump is personally saying that all Muslims are not welcome in our country (ever) strictly because of their personal religious belief's is definitely an exaggeration on your part;

From what I understand about his position on this, Trump is instead only talking about a temporary restriction in Muslim immigration into our country until we can come up with a better plan to combat illegal immigration;

And again in this particular case, to again try to prevent ISIS terrorists from sneaking into our country amongst the (potential) legal or illegal Muslim immigrants, like they have almost certainly done very recently in Europe. http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/605238 ... pe-Francis
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Re: Is Discrimination Always Wrong?

Postby TheVat on March 29th, 2016, 1:50 pm 

Well, irrespective of what you are trying to say here Biv, this is all a moot point unless Donald Trump gets elected right? And even then, he will of course have to follow the particulars of our Constitutional laws no matter what he says during the campaign.

By the way, where did you get "the great idea" to have that really ugly chimp as your new avatar? :)


RON - to answer your first point, it seems to beg the question of why we would want to vote for someone who openly expresses disdain for the Constitution. This is a man who would have to swear to DEFEND said Constitution when he takes over the job.

Regarding the avatar:

1. I think it's a baboon, not a chimp.

2. I put up this flattering self-portrait because the Year of the Monkey began this February, and I am one of those fortunate enough to have been born in a Year of the Monkey.

3. Ugly? The ladies find me quite attractive, especially since I switched to this new hair tonic. :-)

As for the rest of my comments that you opted not to comment on, I think Serpent made the point quite well why things like race and religion are not suitable categories by which we might select immigrants. It violates the spirit of both the Constitution and of our nation's founding ethos. If we do this sort of thing, then we have already lost whatever war we believe ourselves to be fighting.
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Re: Is Discrimination Always Wrong?

Postby Serpent on March 29th, 2016, 2:27 pm 

Ugly? The ladies find me quite attractive, especially since I switched to this new hair tonic

A liddle dab'll do ya....

Now, if only you could convince Trump.
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Re: Is Discrimination Always Wrong?

Postby Lomax on March 29th, 2016, 2:29 pm 

BadgerJelly » March 29th, 2016, 5:40 am wrote:I'm sorry it is utter nonsense. I have absolutely nothing more to say on the subject other than what I've said already. I am not here to fuel some halfwit irresponsible propaganda, I am here to point at it and say "Look how dumb this is. Get a grip."

I have noticed an enthusiastic tendency for you to comment even when you readily admit you have nothing to say.

Ronjanec - ISIS are the people the migrants are migrating from, of course. Suppose the West refuses them asylum (as we did to millions of Jews in the 1930s and 40s, and that went well). Besides the fact, which the Right wing is amazingly capable of not comprehending, that it's pragmatically impossible to close a border the size of America's, the effect is to condemn the more law abiding refugees to sit around in refugee camps on the border of Syria. Now who is it easier for ISIS to go out and radicalise: a refugee accepted ashore by the West or a refugee within walking distance of the Islamic State with nothing but a pillow and a well of resentment toward those wealthy and spacious countries who refused him asylum?
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Re: Is Discrimination Always Wrong?

Postby Lomax on March 29th, 2016, 2:42 pm 

More directly to the title of the thread, Steven E. Landsburg does offer an interesting argument for racial discrimination. It follows a similar logic to Ronjanec's, and is results-focused. If you're not a consequentialist then you should be simply opposed to racism on principle; for the consequentialists among us it will at least spur you to remind yourself of what this sort of thing gives rise to.
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Re: Is Discrimination Always Wrong?

Postby Serpent on March 29th, 2016, 3:04 pm 

ronjanec » March 29th, 2016, 11:12 am wrote:
While I personally agree with what you are saying here in the Public/ Private paragraph Serpent, your implying that Trump is personally saying that all Muslims are not welcome in our country (ever) strictly because of their personal religious belief's is definitely an exaggeration on your part;

I didn't mention Trump - you did. And what you personally believe is what you should personally vote on. I merely pointed out the difference in two concepts that you appeared to have confused.

From what I understand about his position on this, Trump is instead only talking about a temporary restriction in Muslim immigration into our country until we can come up with a better plan to combat illegal immigration;

He can propose anything he wants. The Congress can vote, then the Senate can amend or return the bill, or pass it6. Then, if it's challenged, the Supreme Court can decide whether it's constitutional. Isn't that how the process is supposed to work?

And again in this particular case, to again try to prevent ISIS terrorists from sneaking into our country amongst the (potential) legal or illegal Muslim immigrants, like they have almost certainly done very recently in Europe. http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/605238 ... pe-Francis

What if the terrorists sneak in amongst a flock of fleeing Christians or a shipment of dates?
How that might happen and how it can be circumvented is another subject.
You were asking about discrimination. I wish you would pick a topic and stick to it. When you keeping switching off into particulars that don't relate to the OP question, it becomes quite disorienting.
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Re: Is Discrimination Always Wrong?

Postby ronjanec on March 29th, 2016, 3:28 pm 

Braininvat » Tue Mar 29, 2016 11:50 am wrote:
Well, irrespective of what you are trying to say here Biv, this is all a moot point unless Donald Trump gets elected right? And even then, he will of course have to follow the particulars of our Constitutional laws no matter what he says during the campaign.

By the way, where did you get "the great idea" to have that really ugly chimp as your new avatar? :)


RON - to answer your first point, it seems to beg the question of why we would want to vote for someone who openly expresses disdain for the Constitution. This is a man who would have to swear to DEFEND said Constitution when he takes over the job.

Regarding the avatar:

1. I think it's a baboon, not a chimp.

2. I put up this flattering self-portrait because the Year of the Monkey began this February, and I am one of those fortunate enough to have been born in a Year of the Monkey.

3. Ugly? The ladies find me quite attractive, especially since I switched to this new hair tonic. :-)

As for the rest of my comments that you opted not to comment on, I think Serpent made the point quite well why things like race and religion are not suitable categories by which we might select immigrants. It violates the spirit of both the Constitution and of our nation's founding ethos. If we do this sort of thing, then we have already lost whatever war we believe ourselves to be fighting.


Like I believe many other American voters, I am not familar with Constitutional law, so it is very difficult for me to make an intelligent comment in response to your earlier comments about this.

For the very same reason, I was not able to see the relevance in your comments regarding US Constitutional laws for protecting the rights of US citizens versus the "rights" of immigrants from other countries. And despite my lack of knowledge here, it still sounds like a real grey area here even for people who are familar with this.

In regards to someone actually having concerns about Trump actively defying the Constitution if he gets elected President? C'mon Biv! :)
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Re: Is Discrimination Always Wrong?

Postby ronjanec on March 29th, 2016, 4:13 pm 

Lomax » Tue Mar 29, 2016 12:29 pm wrote:
BadgerJelly » March 29th, 2016, 5:40 am wrote:I'm sorry it is utter nonsense. I have absolutely nothing more to say on the subject other than what I've said already. I am not here to fuel some halfwit irresponsible propaganda, I am here to point at it and say "Look how dumb this is. Get a grip."

I have noticed an enthusiastic tendency for you to comment even when you readily admit you have nothing to say.

Ronjanec - ISIS are the people the migrants are migrating from, of course. Suppose the West refuses them asylum (as we did to millions of Jews in the 1930s and 40s, and that went well). Besides the fact, which the Right wing is amazingly capable of not comprehending, that it's pragmatically impossible to close a border the size of America's, the effect is to condemn the more law abiding refugees to sit around in refugee camps on the border of Syria. Now who is it easier for ISIS to go out and radicalise: a refugee accepted ashore by the West or a refugee within walking distance of the Islamic State with nothing but a pillow and a well of resentment toward those wealthy and spacious countries who refused him asylum?


Lomax,

Yes, ISIS is one of the reasons that people are fleeing from certain Middle Eastern countries, but that still does not again stop the ISIS terrorists from (also) still hiding amongst the actual refugees and other migrants.

I personally have no problem with the US taking in refugees from Syria(and I believe we have taken in a number of Syrian refugees already), and would like to help these poor people who have been through some really terrible times(the families with children in particular): But again, I believe we need to do this in the proper way to protect our American citizens.
ronjanec
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Re: Is Discrimination Always Wrong?

Postby ronjanec on March 29th, 2016, 4:36 pm 

Serpent » Tue Mar 29, 2016 1:04 pm wrote:
ronjanec » March 29th, 2016, 11:12 am wrote:
While I personally agree with what you are saying here in the Public/ Private paragraph Serpent, your implying that Trump is personally saying that all Muslims are not welcome in our country (ever) strictly because of their personal religious belief's is definitely an exaggeration on your part;

I didn't mention Trump - you did. And what you personally believe is what you should personally vote on. I merely pointed out the difference in two concepts that you appeared to have confused.

From what I understand about his position on this, Trump is instead only talking about a temporary restriction in Muslim immigration into our country until we can come up with a better plan to combat illegal immigration;

He can propose anything he wants. The Congress can vote, then the Senate can amend or return the bill, or pass it6. Then, if it's challenged, the Supreme Court can decide whether it's constitutional. Isn't that how the process is supposed to work?

And again in this particular case, to again try to prevent ISIS terrorists from sneaking into our country amongst the (potential) legal or illegal Muslim immigrants, like they have almost certainly done very recently in Europe. http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/605238 ... pe-Francis

What if the terrorists sneak in amongst a flock of fleeing Christians or a shipment of dates?
How that might happen and how it can be circumvented is another subject.
You were asking about discrimination. I wish you would pick a topic and stick to it. When you keeping switching off into particulars that don't relate to the OP question, it becomes quite disorienting.


Well, my new thread and discussion here about "discrimination" was actually inspired by people's accusations about this in regards to Donald Trump, so I was kind of mixing some of this together right from the very beginning Serpent.
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