Is Discrimination Always Wrong?

Discussions that deal with moral issues. Key questions in ethics include: How should one live? What is right (or wrong) to do? What is the best way for humans to live?

Re: Is Discrimination Always Wrong?

Postby Serpent on March 29th, 2016, 5:40 pm 

ronjanec » March 29th, 2016, 2:28 pm wrote:
Like I believe many other American voters, I am not familar with Constitutional law, so it is very difficult for me to make an intelligent comment in response to your earlier comments about this.

For the very same reason, I was not able to see the relevance in your comments regarding US Constitutional laws for protecting the rights of US citizens versus the "rights" of immigrants from other countries. And despite my lack of knowledge here, it still sounds like a real grey area here even for people who are familar with this.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/overviewThere you go. They really ought to teach this in middle school.

In regards to someone actually having concerns about Trump actively defying the Constitution if he gets elected President? C'mon Biv! :)

Many people do.
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Re: Is Discrimination Always Wrong?

Postby ronjanec on March 29th, 2016, 5:48 pm 

Serpent » Tue Mar 29, 2016 3:40 pm wrote:
ronjanec » March 29th, 2016, 2:28 pm wrote:
Like I believe many other American voters, I am not familar with Constitutional law, so it is very difficult for me to make an intelligent comment in response to your earlier comments about this.

For the very same reason, I was not able to see the relevance in your comments regarding US Constitutional laws for protecting the rights of US citizens versus the "rights" of immigrants from other countries. And despite my lack of knowledge here, it still sounds like a real grey area here even for people who are familar with this.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/overviewThere you go. They really ought to teach this in middle school.

In regards to someone actually having concerns about Trump actively defying the Constitution if he gets elected President? C'mon Biv! :)

Many people do.


Will there be a test on all of this later Serpent!?
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Re: Is Discrimination Always Wrong?

Postby mtbturtle on March 29th, 2016, 6:08 pm 

ronjanec » Tue Mar 29, 2016 2:28 pm wrote:
Braininvat » Tue Mar 29, 2016 11:50 am wrote:
Well, irrespective of what you are trying to say here Biv, this is all a moot point unless Donald Trump gets elected right? And even then, he will of course have to follow the particulars of our Constitutional laws no matter what he says during the campaign.

By the way, where did you get "the great idea" to have that really ugly chimp as your new avatar? :)


RON - to answer your first point, it seems to beg the question of why we would want to vote for someone who openly expresses disdain for the Constitution. This is a man who would have to swear to DEFEND said Constitution when he takes over the job.

Regarding the avatar:

1. I think it's a baboon, not a chimp.

2. I put up this flattering self-portrait because the Year of the Monkey began this February, and I am one of those fortunate enough to have been born in a Year of the Monkey.

3. Ugly? The ladies find me quite attractive, especially since I switched to this new hair tonic. :-)

As for the rest of my comments that you opted not to comment on, I think Serpent made the point quite well why things like race and religion are not suitable categories by which we might select immigrants. It violates the spirit of both the Constitution and of our nation's founding ethos. If we do this sort of thing, then we have already lost whatever war we believe ourselves to be fighting.


Like I believe many other American voters, I am not familar with Constitutional law, so it is very difficult for me to make an intelligent comment in response to your earlier comments about this.

For the very same reason, I was not able to see the relevance in your comments regarding US Constitutional laws for protecting the rights of US citizens versus the "rights" of immigrants from other countries. And despite my lack of knowledge here, it still sounds like a real grey area here even for people who are familar with this.

In regards to someone actually having concerns about Trump actively defying the Constitution if he gets elected President? C'mon Biv! :)[/quote]

Isn't that what Conservatives are always saying Obama (or any Democrat really) is doing?
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Re: Is Discrimination Always Wrong?

Postby Serpent on March 29th, 2016, 6:17 pm 

ronjanec » March 29th, 2016, 4:48 pm wrote:
[Like I believe many other American voters, I am not familar with Constitutional law, so it is very difficult for me to make an intelligent comment in response to your earlier comments about this.

For the very same reason, I was not able to see the relevance in your comments regarding US Constitutional laws for protecting the rights of US citizens versus the "rights" of immigrants from other countries. And despite my lack of knowledge here, it still sounds like a real grey area here even for people who are familar with this.]

[Sepent - https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/overviewThere you go. They really ought to teach this in middle school.]


Will there be a test on all of this later Serpent!?

Just what happens to you for the rest of your life.
See, the thing about a constitution - and a democracy. for that matter - is that, if you don't know it, understand it, support it and safeguard it for everybody, you'll suddenly find it's not there for you.
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Re: Is Discrimination Always Wrong?

Postby Lomax on March 29th, 2016, 11:52 pm 

ronjanec » March 29th, 2016, 9:13 pm wrote:Yes, ISIS is one of the reasons that people are fleeing from certain Middle Eastern countries, but that still does not again stop the ISIS terrorists from (also) still hiding amongst the actual refugees and other migrants.

I personally have no problem with the US taking in refugees from Syria(and I believe we have taken in a number of Syrian refugees already), and would like to help these poor people who have been through some really terrible times(the families with children in particular): But again, I believe we need to do this in the proper way to protect our American citizens.

Maybe I don't know enough about Trump's plans; I just hear him say he wants to ban all Muslims. What's to stop an Islamist from simply claiming to be Christian when they get to St. Donald's pearly gates?
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Re: Is Discrimination Always Wrong?

Postby ronjanec on March 30th, 2016, 10:19 am 

Lomax » Tue Mar 29, 2016 9:52 pm wrote:
ronjanec » March 29th, 2016, 9:13 pm wrote:Yes, ISIS is one of the reasons that people are fleeing from certain Middle Eastern countries, but that still does not again stop the ISIS terrorists from (also) still hiding amongst the actual refugees and other migrants.

I personally have no problem with the US taking in refugees from Syria(and I believe we have taken in a number of Syrian refugees already), and would like to help these poor people who have been through some really terrible times(the families with children in particular): But again, I believe we need to do this in the proper way to protect our American citizens.

Maybe I don't know enough about Trump's plans; I just hear him say he wants to ban all Muslims. What's to stop an Islamist from simply claiming to be Christian when they get to St. Donald's pearly gates?


Good point Lomax. Even with a good screening process, I am pretty sure that some ISIS terrorists will still be able to sneak into our country by trying to pretend they are Christians;

But again, with a much tougher immigration screening process, hopefully we will be able to keep this to a bare minimum.
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Re: Is Discrimination Always Wrong?

Postby Lomax on March 30th, 2016, 11:05 am 

My concern is that no such screening process can tell you what a person really believes. Ten percent of the Syrian population are in fact Christian, while it's statistically very unlikely that a Bosnian Muslim would pose a terrorist threat to the West. So religious and national profiling both seem like fruitless endeavours to me.
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Re: Is Discrimination Always Wrong?

Postby ronjanec on March 30th, 2016, 12:22 pm 

Lomax » Wed Mar 30, 2016 9:05 am wrote:My concern is that no such screening process can tell you what a person really believes. Ten percent of the Syrian population are in fact Christian, while it's statistically very unlikely that a Bosnian Muslim would pose a terrorist threat to the West. So religious and national profiling both seem like fruitless endeavours to me.


Earlier, I was personally trying to think of some specific examples in regards to what this tougher immigration policy would also include, and I obviously was not able to come up with any good examples for this, or at least by myself.

So unfortunately, you may be right about this Lomax.
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Re: Is Discrimination Always Wrong?

Postby vivian maxine on April 1st, 2016, 9:31 am 

Delanceyplace.com has a review of a book that is pertinent to the topic. Fields of Blood by Karen Armstrong. She seems to place blame on the rising of nations which replaced the smaller enclaves of like-minded peoples. She feels the latter got along much better before the industrial age absorbed these smaller groups into nations where the minorities became much discriminated against and persecuted.
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Re: Is Discrimination Always Wrong?

Postby mtbturtle on April 7th, 2016, 7:32 pm 

https://thsppl.com/i-don-t-trust-white-people-even-the-liberal-ones-and-science-backs-me-up-18dc718bcc4b?gi=61772528089c

I don’t trust white people, even the liberals, and science backs me up.

I’d say that I’m quite vocal about my distrust of White people. It feels ignorant to immediately brand an entire group of people as untrustworthy, but now I have science to back me up. It turns out that I’m rational after all.
The Problem: Academically Speaking

John Dovidio and Samuel Gaertner, social psychologists, have studied White racial attitudes for the past several decades and coined the phrase:
Aversion racism.

Aversive racism is the conflict that Whites experience between their denial of personal prejudice and their underlying unconscious negative feelings towards and about Blacks. What that means is that even the most liberal and progressive Whites, who explicitly denounce racism, still hold and act upon negative stereotypes and biases against Blacks.

Dovidio and Gaertner argue that it is the existence of both almost unavoidable racial biases and conscious adherence to nondiscriminatory principles that forms the basis of the ambivalence that aversive racists experience.


short, pertinent with good references at the end, most of which unfortunately are probably behindpaywalls, may ask ursa (or anybody else with uni access) to get them for us.
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Re: Is Discrimination Always Wrong?

Postby Braininvat on April 7th, 2016, 8:12 pm 

I think it was maybe The Onion that ran that famous headline, "Racism Over, White People Declare!"

I think if people can be more open about their biases and media stereotypes they encounter, it's less likely to totally submerge into the unconscious. Humor, for example, is powerful. If one can make a self-deprecating joke about one's prejudice, it can possibly be exposed to light and broken down. Or at least kept in check. I had a black friend back in college and I would say, in jest, "hey, be cool, because you represent all black people in America." It exposed the absurdity of my outlook, and we could laugh at it. And he always had a good insulting rejoinder, which helped keep me conscious of the biases we both carried.
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Re: Is Discrimination Always Wrong?

Postby ronjanec on April 7th, 2016, 8:49 pm 

mtbturtle,

While what she is saying here might possibly be true, I find it very interesting that while we always seem to see articles similar to this in regards to what the white community in general needs to do to improve themselves by various Black authors, but the same Black authors never seem to have the guts to write about what the black community in general needs to do to improve themselves.

And with the way things are going generally in the black community today, her time would be much better spent in trying to address this particular issue. When your own house is on fire, it is probably not a very good idea to be overly concerned that your next door neighbor's house needs a new coat of pain.
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Re: Is Discrimination Always Wrong?

Postby mtbturtle on April 7th, 2016, 9:02 pm 

ronjanec,

How would you know what black authors in the black community write about? Which ones do you read, have you read, do you actually follow? My guess 0. IOW, you do not know what you are talking about but reacting in a knee-jerk fashion.
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Re: Is Discrimination Always Wrong?

Postby ronjanec on April 7th, 2016, 9:18 pm 

mtbturtle » Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:02 pm wrote:ronjanec,

How would you know what black authors in the black community write about? Which ones do you read, have you read, do you actually follow? My guess 0. IOW, you do not know what you are talking about but reacting in a knee-jerk fashion.


Bill Cosby talked about this: And he got so much incredible anger and heat from people in the black community about doing this, that he probably scared every other Black person in the country away from writing about this. Why do I get the impression that you are not very open minded about this mtbturtle?
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Re: Is Discrimination Always Wrong?

Postby mtbturtle on April 8th, 2016, 7:40 am 

ronjanec » Thu Apr 07, 2016 8:18 pm wrote:
mtbturtle » Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:02 pm wrote:ronjanec,

How would you know what black authors in the black community write about? Which ones do you read, have you read, do you actually follow? My guess 0. IOW, you do not know what you are talking about but reacting in a knee-jerk fashion.


Bill Cosby talked about this: And he got so much incredible anger and heat from people in the black community about doing this, that he probably scared every other Black person in the country away from writing about this. Why do I get the impression that you are not very open minded about this mtbturtle?


open minded about what, this? Did you bother to read the article is should have taken only a few minutes.
I notice you didn't answer my questions, I will assume I'm correct, you don't read any black authors but somehow feel qualified to pass such harsh condemnations. Why am I not surprised....
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Re: Is Discrimination Always Wrong?

Postby ronjanec on April 8th, 2016, 8:21 am 

I try to respond to your posts mtbturtle, and recently all I get is basically ad hominem attacks on me personally and questions involving the same. Yes I read the article, yes I have read Black authors about a number of other subjects...
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Re: Is Discrimination Always Wrong?

Postby mtbturtle on April 8th, 2016, 8:38 am 

ronjanec » Fri Apr 08, 2016 7:21 am wrote:I try to respond to your posts mtbturtle, and recently all I get is basically ad hominem attacks on me personally and questions involving the same. Yes I read the article, yes I have read Black authors about a number of other subjects...



So based upon your extensive reading of Black Authors you are confident with your judgment of Black Authors, community. riiiiiiiight.

You read that article and the over riding thought you had was enough with telling me, Whites what we need to do to improve racism in the US, these Black Authors never have anything to say about what Blacks need to do to improve their communities.
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Re: Is Discrimination Always Wrong?

Postby ronjanec on April 8th, 2016, 9:45 am 

Yes, this is a real sore point with many people including myself, because of the media constantly promoting the idea that White people are the enemy who need to change their ways, and Black people are always their "innocent" victims;

Like in the case of their overwhelming support and favorable news coverage for organizations like BLM, who basically target only White policemen, and ignore the thugs who kill thousands of their own people.

When Black people like herself also start talking about what is wrong in the Black community, people in the White community will possibly start listening to her.
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Re: Is Discrimination Always Wrong?

Postby Braininvat on April 8th, 2016, 9:54 am 

Blacks are pretty aware what is needed to improve their community...what they need is to make white people aware of how to get out of their way so they can get on with it. That's what I get from black writers. If whites would shut up and start listening, maybe there would be fewer young black men locked up in prison with violent sociopaths for company, for offenses like getting high or stealing a couple cigars. Of course, in Missouri, they just shoot you dead for cigar theft.
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Re: Is Discrimination Always Wrong?

Postby ronjanec on April 8th, 2016, 10:10 am 

Braininvat » Fri Apr 08, 2016 7:54 am wrote:Blacks are pretty aware what is needed to improve their community...what they need is to make white people aware of how to get out of their way so they can get on with it. That's what I get from black writers. If whites would shut up and start listening, maybe there would be fewer young black men locked up in prison with violent sociopaths for company, for offenses like getting high or stealing a couple cigars. Of course, in Missouri, they just shoot you dead for cigar theft.


Since LBJ, the US has spent a great deal of our tax money trying to help the Black community, and in many ways, they are even worse off today than they were before. The Black community(and Black writers) need to stop blaming the White community for all their problems, and instead band together and work really hard to fix the problems in their own community.
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Re: Is Discrimination Always Wrong?

Postby mtbturtle on April 8th, 2016, 10:27 am 

It's not MY FAULT. It is their fault. Racism is because of blacks not whites. I don't need to do anything to change anything. It's their problem, they need to fix it. I'm tired of being blamed for their problems, and most of all don't like the media or black folk ever pointing out any of my flaws. They aren't working hard enough that's the real problem. They need to stop complaining about White people and buckle down and get serious about fixing their communities. That about sum it up for folk like you ron?
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Re: Is Discrimination Always Wrong?

Postby ronjanec on April 8th, 2016, 10:31 am 

There are many decent and hard working Black people in the Black community, and the enemy of the same people in modern times is no longer the White community, but the many other Black people who make them look bad, and also cause them many problems in life.
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Re: Is Discrimination Always Wrong?

Postby mtbturtle on April 8th, 2016, 10:33 am 

ronjanec » Fri Apr 08, 2016 9:31 am wrote:There are many decent and hard working people in the Black community, and the enemy of the same people in modern times is no longer the White community, but the many other Black people who make them look bad, and also cause them many problems in life.


really are you sure about that? from what basis, experience do you speak these truths?
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Re: Is Discrimination Always Wrong?

Postby mtbturtle on April 8th, 2016, 10:39 am 

Ron's denial of structural racism and any implication of his involvement or benefit from such a system is common and a huge hurdle when it comes to discussions of racism.

http://renieddolodge.co.uk/?p=842
On 22nd February 2014 by renieddolodge
Why I’m no longer talking to white people about race
I’m no longer engaging with white people on the topic of race. Not all white people, just the vast majority who refuse to accept the legitimacy of structural racism and its symptoms. I can no longer engage with the gulf of an emotional disconnect that white people display when a person of colour articulates our experiences. You can see their eyes shut down and harden. It’s like treacle is poured into their ears, blocking up their ear canals like they can no longer hear us.
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Re: Is Discrimination Always Wrong?

Postby ronjanec on April 8th, 2016, 10:54 am 

mtbturtle » Fri Apr 08, 2016 8:33 am wrote:
ronjanec » Fri Apr 08, 2016 9:31 am wrote:There are many decent and hard working people in the Black community, and the enemy of the same people in modern times is no longer the White community, but the many other Black people who make them look bad, and also cause them many problems in life.


really are you sure about that? from what basis, experience do you speak these truths?


From my life long personal experience living in the Chicago area with millions of Black people including today in the hi-rise building where I live.

How about your "personal experience" with Black people mtbturtle? The only Black people you probably "experience" living up there in "lilly white" northern Wisconsin is the Black people that you see on tv and at the movies. I go up there every year, and it reminds me of life in one of those "Leave it to Beaver" type all white sit-coms.
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Re: Is Discrimination Always Wrong?

Postby mtbturtle on April 8th, 2016, 11:38 am 

ronjanec » Fri Apr 08, 2016 9:54 am wrote:
mtbturtle » Fri Apr 08, 2016 8:33 am wrote:
ronjanec » Fri Apr 08, 2016 9:31 am wrote:There are many decent and hard working people in the Black community, and the enemy of the same people in modern times is no longer the White community, but the many other Black people who make them look bad, and also cause them many problems in life.


really are you sure about that? from what basis, experience do you speak these truths?


From my life long personal experience living in the Chicago area with millions of Black people including today in the hi-rise building where I live.

How about your "personal experience" with Black people mtbturtle? The only Black people you probably "experience" living up there in "lilly white" northern Wisconsin is the Black people that you see on tv and at the movies. I go up there every year, and it reminds me of life in one of those "Leave it to Beaver" type all white sit-coms.



Ron, I don't proclaim myself a spokesperson for the Black community. I'm not the one pointing fingers here, you are and it's fair to access on what basis you come to point that finger. I don't think your personal experience living in Chicago is sufficient for your opinions regarding problems with the Black community. From listening to those in the articles I've linked to recently, I understand that I'm very privileged and structural racism is real and that means I'm part of the problem. If you want a close look at the issue of structural racism in America and want to understand the Black Lives Matter movement better I strongly recommend reading Michelle Alexander's The New Jim Crow:Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness. Or you can keep wallowing in that racist rag Drudge.
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Re: Is Discrimination Always Wrong?

Postby Braininvat on April 8th, 2016, 12:31 pm 

Ron, it's not as if black communities are floating in outer space, unconnected to an Anglo community. The majority of district attorneys, judges, lawyers, and corrections officers are white people. And the attitudes and biases that they implement in locking up young black men make a big difference. What happens in the city I lived in when my son was growing up? If you are my son and get in trouble with police for a youthful peccadillo (I'll omit details, he's a good guy who had a lowlife friend for a little while), you get "diversion" and end up taking some classes and your juvie record is scrubbed. If you are black or Latino, you get some kind of incarceration. Often with people who are violent and require you to learn violence to survive. So, yes, the entire community shares in the responsibility for making the playing field of life truly level, with justice for all.
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Re: Is Discrimination Always Wrong?

Postby ronjanec on April 8th, 2016, 12:55 pm 

Braininvat » Fri Apr 08, 2016 10:31 am wrote:Ron, it's not as if black communities are floating in outer space, unconnected to an Anglo community. The majority of district attorneys, judges, lawyers, and corrections officers are white people. And the attitudes and biases that they implement in locking up young black men make a big difference. What happens in the city I lived in when my son was growing up? If you are my son and get in trouble with police for a youthful peccadillo (I'll omit details, he's a good guy who had a lowlife friend for a little while), you get "diversion" and end up taking some classes and your juvie record is scrubbed. If you are black or Latino, you get some kind of incarceration. Often with people who are violent and require you to learn violence to survive. So, yes, the entire community shares in the responsibility for making the playing field of life truly level, with justice for all.


Biv, in my particular city, the opposite of what you are saying here is true. Young Black men/criminals get probation over and over again from the courts here until they do something more serious, and even then they usually get very lenient sentences until they finally do something really serious like murder someone.

"That cannot be true!?" The majority of these young Black men/criminals have "rap sheets" a mile long from all their previous arrests and convictions, and if the courts were as hard on them as you say they are, they would not have "rap sheets" again a mile long, because they would have instead been spending almost all of their time in prison.
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Re: Is Discrimination Always Wrong?

Postby mtbturtle on April 8th, 2016, 4:03 pm 

ron,

Have you considered that perhaps the media you regularly consume has given you an incorrect and distorted view of the Black Community and especially movements like BLM? Are you willing to admit that all your opinions regarding crime and blacks just might be wrong?
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Re: Is Discrimination Always Wrong?

Postby ronjanec on April 8th, 2016, 4:52 pm 

mtbturtle » Fri Apr 08, 2016 2:03 pm wrote:ron,

Have you considered that perhaps the media you regularly consume has given you an incorrect and distorted view of the Black Community and especially movements like BLM? Are you willing to admit that all your opinions regarding crime and blacks just might be wrong?


mtbturtle,

Busy tonight...will try and respond tomorrow. Have a nice evening.
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