morality of selling drugs

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morality of selling drugs

Postby ultimatecomplexity on December 12th, 2015, 11:21 am 

What is everybody's thoughts on a persons choice to sell drugs. All drugs.

The facts: Prescription drugs cause more deaths per year than any illegal drugs. As does alcohol and tobacco.

I understand the misery caused by addicted persons, the affect on families etc. But is the blame with the dealers? Are they scapegoats?

It's a very contradictory world we live in. We have big pharma lobbying all governments, it's a billion dollar industry.

If a dealer takes care of his family, friends through his profits. Gives to specific charities. Helps homeless among other things but still sells any drugs with a good profit margin, though also lives a better life for himself, does this make what he does morally wrong? If it is illegal, illegal because the government made it so, whilst committing far worse acts than selling drugs, who decides it is morally wrong.

You can't help but wonder and laugh at the amount of lies, contradictions and hypocrisy in this world.
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Re: morality of selling drugs

Postby Braininvat on December 12th, 2015, 11:36 am 

While agreeing that hypocrisy is rampant, I would hesitate to legalize hard drugs like heroin or meth simply because their effects are so clearly destructive. However bad some of the legal pharmas can be, adding more to that list doesn't seem helpful. And dealers cannot justify enabling a criminal network to deliver such dangerous drugs....the relation between such distribution and crime rates is pretty well demonstrated. Addicts will do about anything to finance their habit. So, giving to charity is irrelevant and doesn't disinfect the nastiness of a dealer's occupation, which furthers human suffering. There is also the violent, often homicidal, rivalry between dealers in settling territorial disputes.
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Re: morality of selling drugs

Postby ultimatecomplexity on December 12th, 2015, 11:47 am 

though it may be the case regarding homicide and disputes over territories I don't believe this I the case everywhere. It depends on location. In high crime rate areas isn't it the case they would be so without drugs anyway? These people have little choices in life and I believe that the reason I much deeper than drugs. I believe the drugs are more likely used as an escape from their situation. Even if you look at how certain areas are built and designed, with massive amounts of people crammed into areas that are designed badly, and probably for a reason. I believe these poorer areas are made so for a reason. If you taker into account say a working class to middle class town, with high employment rates, low crime, but still with a certain amount of dealers and users, it can be done in harmony, mostly.
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Re: morality of selling drugs

Postby tberk on December 12th, 2015, 12:03 pm 

Well, it is still a controversial issue. I do not use drugs actually and never even tried. It is already illegal in my country. However, I actually support its legalization at least, the drugs must be delegalized for the users. Because, their users are actually just the people who became addicted to them. If they need a help, putting the users to jail will not be a solution. Also, making it illegal just increases their price due to their rarity and it will just increased the profits of the underground cartels because they are just abusing the addiction of the users. I know, legalizing it or decriminizing the usage of the drugs is not a good solution for this problem but at least, it is the best option that we have.
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Re: morality of selling drugs

Postby wolfhnd on December 12th, 2015, 12:07 pm 

Prohibition should have been the first clue that making drugs illegal was likely to cause more harm than good. I'm in favor of legalizing of the possession of all recreational drugs and continued regulation of prescription drugs. Prescription drugs are dangerous precisely because they are vetted by the FDA and must remain carefully monitored for safety. Recreational drug need to regulated for safety as well but traditional means of distribution is not going to make that easy.

"In April 2009, the Cato Institute published a comprehensive case study of the decriminalization of drugs in Portugal.[2] Empirical data from that report indicate that decriminalization has had no adverse effect on drug usage rates. However, drug-related pathologies - such as sexually transmitted diseases and deaths due to drug usage - have decreased dramatically.[2][3][4] In 1999, Portugal had the highest rate of HIV amongst injecting drug users in the European Union. The number of newly diagnosed HIV cases among drug users has decreased to 13.4 cases per million in 2009 but that is still high above the European average of 2.85 cases per million.[1] There were 2000 new cases a year, in a country of 10 million people. 45% of HI reported AIDS cases recorded in 1997 originated among IV drug users,[5] so targeting drug use was seen as an effective avenue of HIV prevention. The number of heroin users was estimated to be between 50,000 and 100,000 at the end of the 1990s.[6] This led to the adoption of The National Strategy for the Fight Against Drugs in 1999. A vast expansion of harm reduction efforts, doubling the investment of public funds in drug treatment and drug prevention services, and changing the legal framework dealing with minor drug offenses were the main elements of the policy thrust."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_Portugal

Since the original post concerns selling of drugs I have to admit I have no idea how to move past laws concerning possession.

Laws should never prohibit any individuals behavior that does not directly harm others. Behavior may be regulated to reduce risk of harm to others but when activities are outright prohibited it grants a power to the state that is not justified in a free society. Prohibition often encourages crime by producing a population that is incapable of accepting personal responsibility or impedes the development of what in the past was called moral fiber. Prohibition also almost always empowers organized crime and the corruption of public officials.
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Re: morality of selling drugs

Postby Braininvat on December 12th, 2015, 2:01 pm 

The problem with setting criteria for "does not directly harm others" is that there are few addictive behaviors that don't, in some way, do considerable harm to the people nearest to the addict. I believe my former work in counseling gives me some knowledge of this problem. Also, living with an addict during part of my childhood.

I really think it's important to distinguish between recreational drugs which can be used moderately, like pot and booze, and more dangerous drugs like meth, cocaine, and heroin. While I agree that some people become addicted to these drugs through a desire for escape from an unpleasant environment, simply approving their choice with legalization is hardly doing a service to their loved ones or to those who are trying to work collectively to improve the bad neighborhood. Escapism is not the answer to social ills.

The "hard drugs" are not really victimless in the way that the OP is trying to present them. I can certainly agree that addicts should be diverted into compassionate treatment settings, rather than jail, but that is not the same as legalization. Dealing and manufacturing should remain a criminal offense - dealing of hard drugs is basically profiting from the misery and often, death, of others. There is simply no way to get around this reality or put a benign face on it. The answers to crime and corruption that Wolfhoud raises are not easy ones, but the naive surrender of legalization is not a way to get around the hard work. Dealing and manufacturing deadly drugs, drugs that destroy the mind, a person's family, and eventually life, cannot really be construed as anything other than criminal. Decriminalization, for the individual user, that is another matter, and deserves a chance.
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Re: morality of selling drugs

Postby ultimatecomplexity on December 12th, 2015, 5:07 pm 

The problem with it remaining a criminal offence to sell drugs I that as I stated both prescription drugs and alcohol kill and harm more than all illegal drugs. In essence to say a dealer profiting off misery is wrong, but companies and corporations doing it legally is not wrong is complete hypocrisy. It is also done this way with the backing of governments who make the laws. Therefore in a fair world, simply put, its bullshit.
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Re: morality of selling drugs

Postby Dave_Oblad on December 12th, 2015, 8:09 pm 

Hi all,

I'll have to agree with ultimatecomplexity. Back in my late teens I tried every recreational drug I could buy and such drugs were easier to obtain than alcohol. I out grew this experimentation phase after a few years, none the worse. But let me relate a true story:

My wife's half brother (Teri) was married to a woman (Lin) and they had 5 kids, the oldest (female) was about 16 and the youngest (male) about 8. The youngest was forced to attend a school presentation in his elementary school. They were asked if they had seen any of the equipment presented within their homes. Such a Bongs, funny pipes and such. They were told that such was an indication that their parents were sick and needed help. The kids should step up and get their parents help.

The youngest fell for the ploy and admitted to the presenters he had seen such at home. Specifically the Bong. Both parents were gainfully employed, had an apartment and both had average unskilled jobs. The state sent a social worker to their home who had a little dog with her on the excuse of doing some survey. The (trained) dog's behavior indicated local drugs and the social worker discretely summoned law enforcement.

The Pot was seized, the parents were issue a warrant to appear in court and the kids were taken into state custody, shortly placed into foster care. The state then went to the parents places of employment and demanded to know why they weren't doing mandatory drug testing. The parents were fired from their jobs and lacking employment with the additional stigma of being fired for drug use from their last jobs, they quickly fell on hard times, got evicted from their apartment for rent overdue and their car was repossessed, making it even harder to find employment.

Teri rebelled against such treatment, moved in with some old friends, who were mostly into Meth. Lin moved in with her parents. The foster care was pure hell for the kids. The foster parents were Christian Fundamentalists and clamped down on the kids. No TV except Gospel shows and in-home Bible study every night. Not allowed to socialize outside home and school. The oldest daughter was hit hardest, not allowed to dress in her favorite way and no make-up. The kids were all punished if any single one of them misbehaved.

The oldest daughter ran away from the foster home several times and came very close to being sent to detention facilities. Lin tried very hard to comply with state mandated requirements, getting a job and driving a parents car. Attending anti-drug counseling etc, in order to get her kids back. Teri pretended to take the high ground and refused to co-operate with the state requirements. Being separated and super stressed, Lin filed for divorce. Teri found a new girl friend (Shan) and knocked her up. Shan's parents hated Teri, her pregnancy and kicked her out of their home. Fortunately she had her own car.

Shan hated Teri's friends so they both moved into my house. Followed shortly by Lin who wanted to be closer to her kids, having finally gotten visitation privileges. Not having transportation anymore but needing to keep her job, I bought Lin an old car. Lin was going crazy over the abuse of her kids at the hands of the foster parents, so one day they all disappeared. Lin and Teri kidnapped their kids after school, packed their bags and all moved somewhere out east. I later found they had moved to some cousin of Shan, who owned a farm and could use free labor in exchange for shelter and food.

Years later, the two oldest, having become adults, moved back to SoCal with relatives and are doing well.

The oldest boy relayed through the family, that Lin had died from something she could have gotten treated for, had she not been keeping under the FBI radar for Kidnapping. Teri died from Liver failure, as he ran away and became a street bum with an addiction to alcohol. I have no idea what became of Shan and her child and the other 3 young ones of Teri and Lin.

This is a true story, except for the names I've applied. I told this story to a co-worker.. who responded: "See.. drugs can ruin your life." I was outraged at that interpretation. They were doing fine just using some occasional Pot to take the stress off. It was the Draconian Laws and Methods that ruined their lives and ultimately brought about the early deaths to two people.

I personally used Pot for about 10 years during a stressful phase of my life. It changed me for the better. All my stress ailments disappeared (psoriasis, ulcers, insomnia etc) during that time. When my wife passed away in 2003 (flu) I stopped smoking weed and the psoriasis has returned, but I try not to take life so seriously nowadays, so I'm pretty healthy.

Anyway, my point is that (Per BiV) most of his statements are not accurate. The Laws do far more harm than the Drugs.

Best regards all,
Dave :^)
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Re: morality of selling drugs

Postby Braininvat on December 12th, 2015, 8:18 pm 

Dave, Ultim seems to be arguing for more than decriminalized pot or treatment v. prison for addicts of harsher drugs.

Ultimate: No one here is arguing that alcohol abuse is a good thing or that it's legality doesn't come with problems and some hypocrisy. Only that it makes no sense to add meth, crack and heroin to the list of what is legal. And please try to read what is actually posted. You can decriminalize addiction without giving a societal seal of approval to drugs like crack and legalizing them.

As for the peccadillos of Big Pharma, again, no one doubts that dangerous drugs have been rushed to market. If that's the case you wish to make, then please cite specific examples of that which we can talk about. Solving problems doesn't get accomplished by simply railing against hypocrisy - facts are needed.
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Re: morality of selling drugs

Postby Braininvat on December 12th, 2015, 8:23 pm 

And, again, I was not advocating criminal penalties for using or selling pot or peyote. Please read all of post before assuming you know what is being said.
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Re: morality of selling drugs

Postby ultimatecomplexity on December 12th, 2015, 8:40 pm 

I never once argued or spoke about decriminalising or legalising drugs at all. I was talking about the morality of selling drugs. How dealers and users are spoken of as people (especially dealers) that are morally bad for doing what they do. The post is more about the hypocrisy of the world rather than anything to do with legal issues. As dave pointed out, the problem in the story he told was the law interfering rather than the drug use being the problem. Depending on your class level, status etc, you are more likely to be persecuted for taking or supplying drugs compared to better off people.

I don't for one second even understand this argument of "not adding to the list." With or without the drugs being legal they will still be there. And as I stated I believe the use of hard drugs especially is down to people's lives being already messed up due to many other factors. There is a far deeper rooted issue at hand than the drug use, which I personally, although not knowing the exact issue, is the reason for the drug use.

The world is full of condemnation. Condemn one person or group, whilst doing the same themselves.

I know a doctor who ever year is approached by representatives of pharmaceutical companies every year and offered houses, cars etc to push their drugs through. These same companies lobby governments, have political power yet poorer people are told selling drugs to make a living because they literally have no other option is both morally and lawfully wrong. All whilst the ones that are saying this do the same thing, albeit in a "cleaner" looking way. Attach the word legal or illegal to anything and the majority accepts it to be the case.
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Re: morality of selling drugs

Postby tantric on February 22nd, 2016, 9:16 am 

In college, in the 90s, I sold pot to support my own habit, which wasn't excessive. Other than my free bag/week, I never attempted to make a profit - It was a service for my friends, really. Later I grew shrooms, but I just gave those away....but it started something in me. I was one of those awful rave kiddies at the time, and man, I *believed* in that. After I took MDMA the first time and it healed my soul, letting me express years of repressed grief from my mother's death....then the second time, I got poison. You never knew what was in a pill. I had a realization:

The War on Drugs is a war of terror and oppression conducted by the government against its own citizens.

and I decided to do something about it. Understand I was majoring in Japanese and Asian Literature. HS chem was my only C. But I taught myself o-chem. I joined alt.drugs.chemistry and then the Hive website. It took six months, but I made my own MDMA.....and I gave it away for free. To me, dealers were 'profiteers'. And wow, they hated me a lot. Eventually I got caught and charged with 'Conspiracy to Manufacture Ecstasy'. I got off on an invalid search warrant, which I call 'karma'.

These days, I just order stuff from China. Google 'reddit research chemical vendor'. It's VASTLY safer than dealing with the underworld, and these days, the analogs are better. Last month I bought 5g of acetildenafil, and regardless of what the big pharma companies are screaming about it being 'untested' it's flat out better than viagra...which costs $50 a pill from the pharmacy. Next week I'm getting some flouromodafinil - which isn't even vaguely illegal and can be ordered domestically. But if you want, you can get 3-Methoxy-PCP delivered to your house, inside a Chinese magazine, for very little money.

drug dealers are DUMB
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Re: morality of selling drugs

Postby BioWizard on February 22nd, 2016, 9:22 am 

I'm not going to get into he political aspect of this converation right now.

This though:

ultimatecomplexity » 12 Dec 2015 10:21 am wrote:The facts: Prescription drugs cause more deaths per year than any illegal drugs. As does alcohol and tobacco.


Ahuh. And how many lives do prescription drugs save? How much pain/suffering do they alleviate? How many more deaths would be occuring every year if you take away prescription drugs?

How will the landscape of death and disease change if you eliminate alcohol, tobacco, and illegally traded hard drugs? Is it going to be the same as eliminating prescription drugs (diabetes drugs, psychoactive drugs, cancer drugs, HIV drugs, antibiotics, etc)?

Who again is the hypocrite here?

Sure pharma isn't a philanthropist charity. It's an industry, and industries can be rutheless. But that doesn't mean one should lose their grip on reality, or see everything through the narrow lens of their individual right to party.
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Re: morality of selling drugs

Postby Braininvat on February 22nd, 2016, 10:45 am 

There was a willful misunderstanding of every posting I wrote here, so I gave up. I support decriminalization (even Dave O seemed not to get that) and tried to convey that's not the same as legalization, and I was referring specifically to hard drugs like meth, crack, and heroin.

Also, I thought it was disappointing that the OP could not grasp the ethical problem of selling hard drugs to people who would be vulnerable to their destructive and lethal potential. Would he use his same argument to promote handing a loaded gun to a severely depressed person? People are responsible for their bad decisions, but that doesn't completely exculpate someone who preys on their weakness.

I kept trying to bring the focus on the actual topic, but most wanted to duck that matter and get on a decriminalization soapbox.
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Re: morality of selling drugs

Postby Dave_Oblad on February 22nd, 2016, 6:31 pm 

Hi all,

Quick note: I'm for introducing new laws making it legal to buy drugs by adults with a license to do so.

Much like a drivers license. You must be able to prove you understand the dangers and be able to take such drugs for recreational use, much like off road vehicles. I'm tired of the Government playing nanny to it's citizens, but at the same time realize that many folks have an addictive vulnerability. So if you disobey the laws meant to protect the public, then you lose the license to purchase drugs. Once legalized, drugs become safer and cheaper, putting back-alley dealers out of business.

Did you know one of the safest drugs out there is heroin? As long as one watches their dosage, it has little harmful side effects. And a $100 dollar a day habit would only cost about $1 dollar a day. How do you suppose an addict can afford a $100 a day habit? Probably not legally.

Lot's more to say.. but my work break is over. Later....

Best wises,
Dave :^)
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Re: morality of selling drugs

Postby BadgerJelly on February 23rd, 2016, 2:55 am 

If the dealer is moral then I guess it is okay. I don't think it is moral to say that it is okay to cause mass addiction because the funds you receive are going to a good cause though.

If selling drugs is your prime source of income I doubt you'd be able to follow where and to whom these drugs go. So I cannot imagine that situation being morally okay by me.
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Re: morality of selling drugs

Postby Braininvat on February 23rd, 2016, 1:03 pm 

A thumbs-up for an on topic and incisive posting that addresses the central argument of the OP.



DAVEO: You said,

"Did you know one of the safest drugs out there is heroin? As long as one watches their dosage, it has little harmful side effects....."

I would be interested to see any evidence you have for this statement. And please bear in mind that, as I indicated in an earlier post, that I worked professionally for a while, as a counselor, with drug addicts. So I will need some pretty solid citations. (I recognize, as I've said repeatedly here, that it makes sense to decriminalize the use of heroin and other hard drugs, and to remove the economic pressures that spawn black markets and criminal networks of distribution, but that's not quite the same as total legalization.) Also, you need figures to support your contention that legal drugs are cheaper drugs. A casual glance at the prices of many pharmaceuticals would lead me to think that statement also needs some further supporting citations.

And everyone, please consider as you advance arguments, that hard drugs are dangerous, destructive to mind and body, and often lethal in the way that their effects override our normal self-control mechanisms. They are not marijuana or peyote or mescaline. These are substances that no society would just say "help yourself, 21 year olds!" any more than we would hand a bottle of gin or a pack of cigarettes to a six year old.

Yes, we've succeeded in promoting moderate alcohol use in a large percent of the population, and tobacco use has been dropping for several decades now and lost it's Bogart coolness it once had, but I think one needs to consider carefully before advancing the idea that we could have similar success with legal meth or heroin or crack cocaine. For every William S Burroughs, there are a thousand junkies or tweakers who don't become successful novelists and just end up in the gutter choking on their own vomit. Would legalization help them? Will we cheer them on as they can legally obliterate their lives, their jobs, their families, their dreams for the future, and eventually their minds? Will we have some kind of Libertarian paradise?
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Re: morality of selling drugs

Postby Braininvat on February 23rd, 2016, 1:08 pm 

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Re: morality of selling drugs

Postby Dave_Oblad on February 23rd, 2016, 5:57 pm 

Hi BIV,

Not to get all logical on you..

BrainInVat wrote:Would legalization help them? Will we cheer them on as they can legally obliterate their lives, their jobs, their families, their dreams for the future, and eventually their minds? Will we have some kind of Libertarian paradise?

I specifically propose legalization for recreational use under controls such as a license to purchase. There is no drug that can addict you if you use it once per week and that's a fact. Now how does one compare a daily junkie with once per week recreational use? Suppose you went skiing every day. Statistically, you would break a bone or worse every so often. Look at all the things we do for recreation.. virtually none are safe, especially if done on a daily basis. Do I need to make a MASSIVE list of all the dangerous recreations we expose ourselves to for fun? Too much of anything is bad.

When drafted and sent over to Nam, I had the choice to join several social groups.. I tried them all.. all sucked. Especially the drinkers at the bar. There was bloody fights every night and lots of injuries. The pot group was boring as was the holy roller born agains. The only group was the heroin users that seemed sociable and intelligent. Played cards and chess. I watched them smoke their drug for weeks before trying it myself. It was 99.9% pure and cost 20 cents for a vial that would keep a user here happy for weeks.

A doctor came by and addressed the compound and specifically stated that, among all the bad choices, heroin was the least bad. The greatest danger is an overdose. But with consistent potency, it was easy to regulate ones dosage, so not one user ever overdosed. I used it for 9 months daily.. then decided to quit a few weeks before going back to the states. I expected bad withdrawals. Turned out it was like having a mild flu for about 2 weeks Same with the others.

So why is it so dangerous here in the states? Because it is Illegal! Badly cut with all sorts of stupid stuff and inconsistent potency, leading to accidental over dosages and of course needles. At max potency you can smoke it, or dilute it and drink it. No one over there used a needle.

But anyway, back on point... why does everyone feel horror at recreational drug use yet pays to watch someone wrestle an alligator or jump a motorcycle over a bus?

It's all about brainwashing and scare tactics. If licensed and regulated and pharmaceutical grade, problems would diminish by a huge factor. Again, there will be abusers, just like with Alcohol and Running. Yes, you heard that correctly.. a huge number of young people end up in the hospital with heart problems due to over exercise. Nothing, taken to extremes is good.

But I sure get tired of being controlled by Brainwashed Idiots using stupid scare tactics.



Idiot: Someone that wants drugs kept illegal and then drives a motorcycle home from a bar after drinking all night..lol.

JUST SAY NO!

And while you are at it.. bubble-wrap your whole life.

Best wishes,
Dave :^)
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Re: morality of selling drugs

Postby Braininvat on February 23rd, 2016, 6:16 pm 

No worries, Dave, you didn't get too logical there. I wondered about scientific evidence and you offered personal anecdotes from Nam.

You also made the unsupported assertion that no drug is addictive if used just once a week. Dave, some drugs are addictive the first time they are used. Again, not overwhelmed by your logic.

Where we agree is that hard drugs be decriminalized, and that those addicted have access to clean medical grade sources.

As for heroin, you were quite fortunate. I suspect using meth or crack or angeldust wouldn't have gone so well for you, but it's hard to quantify risks on an individual basis.
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Re: morality of selling drugs

Postby BioWizard on February 23rd, 2016, 10:10 pm 

Dave,

Like BiV, I can see the "logic" in your own individual experience. But I don't see it from a statistically sound perspective. I suspect you won't find that kind of supporting evidence, because as BiV - someone who worker in the field - suggested, it's not likely to exist. Once a day (week) keeps the (any kind of) addiction away? Fat chance.

I'm with you there that people are brainwashed to do some stupid and logically irreconsilable things. But one stupid thing doesn't justify another.

That said, I don't think your and BiV's viewpoints are vastly apart.
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Re: morality of selling drugs

Postby Dave_Oblad on February 24th, 2016, 12:19 am 

Hi all,

BIV wrote:Dave, some drugs are addictive the first time they are used.

Ok.. name the drug.. it doesn't exist. I agree that anything done once that is enjoyed will lead to wanting to do it again. That is where one must ration oneself and use some common sense.

I know two fellows that did Meth everyday for over two years.. and they are messed up.

They have to take daily medication (a pill) to keep their brains chemically stable else they have intense paranoia. Now I've enjoyed Meth many times.. maybe 20 times over 10 years.. no negative consequences. My biggest health issue is Stress. It manifests itself in my daily life and I can't avoid it. Except for about 10 years I smoked pot daily (pipe load at night) and all my negative stress symptoms disappeared. But my seller moved away about 13 years ago and I stopped. My psoriasis and insomnia have returned, but I'm hoping Pot will become legal so I can get healthy again. I hate Booze, might as well drink gasoline.

Anyway, my point is that, with moderation, many drugs can be safe to enjoy for recreational use.

The issue is that saying "Recreational Drugs" brings a Knee-Jerk reaction from so many brainwashed individuals. The same people that jump on a trampoline or ski or skydive or mountain-climb or drive for recreation.. just can't shake the societal stigma that decades of brain-washing has instilled in them. There is no logic in believing that cliff diving is fun and fine but pot is bad. That insanity is almost overwhelming.

Each to his own source of recreation (in moderation with a working knowledge of the dangers).

This (drugs) is just one minor aspect of modern society. The insanity runs so deep in the human race, on so many fronts, that a large book couldn't spell them all out. No wonder ET has posted a quarantine on this world..lol.

But that rant would be for other threads, so I'll get off my soapbox for now... before I break my silly neck.

Best regards,
Dave :^)
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Re: morality of selling drugs

Postby BadgerJelly on February 24th, 2016, 2:06 am 

BadgerJelly » February 23rd, 2016, 2:55 pm wrote:If the dealer is moral then I guess it is okay. I don't think it is moral to say that it is okay to cause mass addiction because the funds you receive are going to a good cause though.

If selling drugs is your prime source of income I doubt you'd be able to follow where and to whom these drugs go. So I cannot imagine that situation being morally okay by me.


Sorry to quote myself but what I write is so amazingly insightful! XD

Is Nietzsche responsible for Hitlers interpretation? Should he have known better and only let certain people read his work?

Is the OP really addressing where and when we should hold ourselves responsible for the choices others make due to what we ourselves have done?

Is intent to cause harm more harmful than causing harm due to ignorance or less so?

I say less so because I am suggesting it is easier to recognise someone who is intent to cause harm for gain than someone who is utterly ignorant of the harm they are causing. I liar can be seen to lie but an ignorant person cannot.

So pharmaceutical companies with good intentions could possibly cause more harm than those with less moral intentions because they are trusted ... this leads me to think that the more moral any company is the greater it has to lose due to simply errors. If the company is known to do something less than perfectly moral then when it makes a genuine mistake it suffers less?

I do think drug dealers are used as a scapegoat in the sense that food companies can and do manioulate the public/cultures by basically poisoning them over long periods of time and causing addiction.

I think we can whine about it but at the end of the day all we can do is try and act responsibly again such companies and go to McDonalds to discuss it with our friends.
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Re: morality of selling drugs

Postby BadgerJelly on February 24th, 2016, 2:06 am 

BadgerJelly » February 23rd, 2016, 2:55 pm wrote:If the dealer is moral then I guess it is okay. I don't think it is moral to say that it is okay to cause mass addiction because the funds you receive are going to a good cause though.

If selling drugs is your prime source of income I doubt you'd be able to follow where and to whom these drugs go. So I cannot imagine that situation being morally okay by me.


Sorry to quote myself but what I write is so amazingly insightful! XD

Is Nietzsche responsible for Hitlers interpretation? Should he have known better and only let certain people read his work?

Is the OP really addressing where and when we should hold ourselves responsible for the choices others make due to what we ourselves have done?

Is intent to cause harm more harmful than causing harm due to ignorance or less so?

I say less so because I am suggesting it is easier to recognise someone who is intent to cause harm for gain than someone who is utterly ignorant of the harm they are causing. I liar can be seen to lie but an ignorant person cannot.

So pharmaceutical companies with good intentions could possibly cause more harm than those with less moral intentions because they are trusted ... this leads me to think that the more moral any company is the greater it has to lose due to simply errors. If the company is known to do something less than perfectly moral then when it makes a genuine mistake it suffers less?

I do think drug dealers are used as a scapegoat in the sense that food companies can and do manioulate the public/cultures by basically poisoning them over long periods of time and causing addiction.

I think we can whine about it but at the end of the day all we can do is try and act responsibly again such companies and go to McDonalds to discuss it with our friends.
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Re: morality of selling drugs

Postby Eclogite on February 24th, 2016, 7:16 am 

To address the OP I have first to address the issue of decriminalisation.

I lean towards decriminalising all drugs, but in an environment where there sale is carefully regulated, and where extensive education on their effects is provided to users and potential users.

Since drug dealers are incapable of providing either the regulation, or the education then - to me - their activities are immoral. (Any good deeds they do are as irrelevant as a mass murderer claiming he is basically a good person since he walks his disabled neighbours dog.)
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Re: morality of selling drugs

Postby Braininvat on February 24th, 2016, 10:01 am 

Now I've enjoyed Meth many times.. maybe 20 times over 10 years.. no negative consequences....


Dave, we don't disagree about the benefits of pot for pain, stress, nausea, etc. But do consider the possibility that your personality is one that is less prone to addiction and more able to dabble in hard drugs and get away (I'll take your word on this) unscathed. Many people fall into debilitating dependency very quickly. Did you see "Frontline" last night on heroin treatment programs in Seattle? The non-prosecutorial approach they are trying seems promising.

Also be nice if Big Pharma could develop a form of heroin that could survive hydrochloric acid in the stomach (like methadone can), so that users don't mess with needles and the greater hazards of "hotshots." Heroin would never have tempted me simply due to an aversion to needles.

I did try hydrocodone once and it was wonderful, I felt as Baudelaire must have on his opium trips. That experience made me more aware of how seductive the opioids can be. It was a taste of heaven.
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Re: morality of selling drugs

Postby Dave_Oblad on February 24th, 2016, 6:01 pm 

Right on Biv,

I had a friend that was previously a cop. He had to quit the force because he was becoming too jaded in regards to people. Being exposed daily to the bottom dwellers can have a devastating effect on ones psychic. I know/knew a lot of pot heads that should not have taken that path.. they become lazy bums.

But I also knew many professionals that dosed on pot, not unlike someone that drinks a glass of wine with dinner. They where doing very well in their lives as did I. But bring up alcohol and the idealists immediately point at images of slums with drunks and bums crowding the alley. They don't show the occasion drinker that limits and regulates their intake and maintains responsibility. Same happens with drugs.. always the idealists point to addicts that have to live a life of crime to maintain a $100 a day habit. Both drunks and addicts need help. But the folks that do/indulge such with responsibility are ignored because they are almost invisible. They are not the problem. Simple solutions are the problem.

Idealists think remove the temptation and all will be well. Prohibition should have taught us that path doesn't work and only makes everything worse. Realists should offer alternate paths to fix or at least minimize the problems and that can only work when it's safe to ask for help.. through decriminalization. As stated in my first post here, a good functional family was destroyed by the Draconian methods employed by Idealists. That has to change.

Sorry if I'm not adhering to the topic of this thread.. but we do have a problem that needs a more gentle rational approach to solving.

Later.. my breaks over.. lol.

Best wishes,
Dave :^)
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Re: morality of selling drugs

Postby tantric on February 28th, 2016, 4:35 am 

One point to be considered is that there are pharmacological treatments for addictions that have been proven to be remarkable effective. The legendary one is Ibogaine, but research shows that most NMDA-antagonists will work. And this is a cure - immediately cessation of withdrawals followed by a period in which the subject is psychologically adverse to re-use. The problem is that the experience is a serious mind trip. Millions were spent trying to find a non-hallucinagetic version of ibogaine. Pointlessly. The trip is the cure. The drug activates the part of the mind that deals with religion. I kid you not - it induces a religious experience, while curing your addiction. It is NOT a fun process.

Were our society to really invest in such treatments, as opposed to methadone, much of the horror of hard drugs could be ameliorated. That's exactly why ibogaine is a schedule I drug in USA, with no medical value and high abuse potential......
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Re: morality of selling drugs

Postby Braininvat on February 28th, 2016, 11:12 am 

LSD, before its total ban, was also found to be therapeutic for alcoholism. Too bad that hysteria took over.
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Re: morality of selling drugs

Postby Braininvat on March 24th, 2016, 12:25 pm 

Those sensible Canadians are at it again, making the U.S. look medieval.....

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/23/opini ... tment.html
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