Is it wrong to have sex with...

Discussions that deal with moral issues. Key questions in ethics include: How should one live? What is right (or wrong) to do? What is the best way for humans to live?

Is it wrong to have sex with...

Postby Deftil on September 29th, 2012, 7:37 pm 

Is it wrong to have sex with your sister?

I'd seen this before but it came up yesterday in a book I'm currently reading.

Julie and Mark are brother and sister. They are traveling together in France on summer vacation from college. One night they are staying alone in a cabin near the beach. They decide that it would be interesting and fun if they tried making love. At the very least, it would be a new experience for each of them. Julie was already taking birth control pills, but Mark uses a condom too, just to be safe. They both enjoy making love, but they decide never to do it again. They keep that night as a special secret, which makes them feel even closer to each other. What do you think about that? Was it ok for them to make love?


Jonathan Haidt came up with this scenario and we can get into it more later if we want to but now I'm curious about what people's responses are to the question "Was it ok for them to make love?" and and their reasoning for them.
Last edited by mtbturtle on April 17th, 2013, 9:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: title
User avatar
Deftil
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 1708
Joined: 13 Mar 2008
Location: Virginia, USA


Re: Is it wrong to have sex with your sister?

Postby CanadysPeak on September 29th, 2012, 9:09 pm 

I see no ethical problem. They appear to be above the age of consent. They used birth control.

I do see a possible problem with future relationships. The siblings are at a time when they should be separating from their family and cleaving to others. This "one night stand" may forever complicate matters by creating an unusually strong bond between brother and sister. However, if they have a healthy and positive outlook on sex, that should not be a big deal; in effect, it can be little more than a chance encounter with a stranger at a bar.
CanadysPeak
Resident Expert
 
Posts: 5448
Joined: 31 Dec 2008
Likes received:54
Paradox liked this post


Re: Is it wrong to have sex with your sister?

Postby psionic11 on September 30th, 2012, 12:30 am 

Let's divide this moral question into 3 areas, and contrive a short answer for each of the areas.

1) morals are derived from God/Church
In this example, the obvious answer is it is a sin or abomination to have sex with your sister, right? Maybe not strictly so according to which Biblical passage you go by, but by contemporary religious standards almost certainly forbidden.

2) morals are derived from your culture or society
These national mores are what bind most of us together, beyond the religious ties. In pluralistic nations and the modern global mindset, it is safe to say the predominant mindset is that incest is a taboo.

3) consequence supersedes morals
In this pragmatic outlook, the real motivations that guide behaviors are the likely and/or actual outcomes to acts. It's only illegal if you get caught. Forget the butterfly effect, did anyone notice or did anything major change? In this particular example, since birth control was used, and assuming no further social complications down the line for either brother or sister as Canadyspeak mentioned, then the consensual act is just another event in the life of.

So, it seems to me, to answer whether it is wrong to have sex with your sister depends on which moral standard you subscribe to. As an atheist raised Catholic, I would say #3 is the answer, but my upbringing (#2) would prevent this from happening in the first place.

Your mileage may vary.
User avatar
psionic11
Active Member
 
Posts: 1331
Joined: 15 May 2006
Location: Orlando, FL
Likes received:4


Re: Is it wrong to have sex with your sister?

Postby newyear on October 2nd, 2012, 7:52 am 

To me, it's more of a personal question rather than moral. I have often thought about this, just like I have about homosexuality. There is nothing morally wrong with either, or I guess sexual relations with one's parents. However, I am not so sure that it is a good idea mentally. We all have some form of mental repressions, (which I think are necessary) and sex is one of them. The family unit, and the family unit as it fits into its particular society have 'rules'. It is these unspoken rules that shape our inhibitions.

I personally do not entertain homosexual thoughts. I know I am repressing the ideas that would otherwise flow freely in my mind. I stop myself from thinking too much about the subject, and generally bring up disagreeable ideas about it. This doesn't occur when I observe a person of the opposite sex that happens to attract my attention for some reason or another, these ideas I enjoy.
newyear
Active Member
 
Posts: 1579
Joined: 01 Jan 2007
Location: Madrid


Re: Is it wrong to have sex with your sister?

Postby Percarus on October 7th, 2012, 2:00 am 

Ok, there are many arguments for this, and in case procreation occurred between first cousins, for instance, there is then the argument that genetic defect is only 1.7-2.8% extra, akin to a 40 year old woman having children. You can further argue, if homosexuality is not prohibited (which it shouldn’t be, but can be immoral if done wrong) why should incest be taboo still? Incest to me is an uttermost notion of sexual deviancy (not surpassing bestiality), and in a biblical perspective I would argue that God spoke against sinfulness of such behaviours. Incest damages the very essence of the family unity, whereas when a woman falls in love with another woman (or a man with a man) no family is destroyed. Families depend on moral structure, incest and polyandry (not polygyny) disorients kids, children and the very motivation and essence for humanity’s intellect to thrive forwards. Incest may seem ‘icky’, and the case suggests it was just an ‘experimental’ mistake and err, such things happen, sins can be forgiven, but the only individuals such couples would be affecting is themselves – emotional scars would linger for ages and hence they would be committing a sin not to others but to themselves – akin to seeing hookers.

Psionic11 argues the matter simply as a factor of morals, and this, in this case, is the prime directive for many reasons. But also ponder about the implications in society – incest would lead a pathway where society itself becomes less social and it hinders the spreading and amalgamation of genuine ideas in between groups is society. It would lead to segregation, misunderstanding, racism, and many other social factors. Another metaphor can be used in the case of consuming faeces – it is disgusting and wrong, albeit a personal choice; such an option would lead to ridicule by others and would undoubtedly lead to suffering of one’s self through shame and embarrassment due to one’s own stupidity, hence a sin. Another supporting notion can be seen when examining the Egyptians; the nobles in that civilization would encourage incest so as to keep the ‘bloodline’ pure, and hence already accentuates the notion of difference amongst classes in society and hence irrational discrimination.

A dictionary definition of ‘family’ (of many) can be seen as, “A taxonomic category of related organisms ranking below an order and above a genus. A family usually consists of several genera.” – in this case we can see that the word ‘several’ bears importance as it accentuates the fact of proliferation and diversity, and not intermingling between the same bloodline. Ok, maybe that was not clear, but a ‘new’ family cannot be created if incest is to take place within the same family structure. Diversity in lineage is important for society as we are then able to capitalise on its associated benefits – an important notion for a thinker and hence mankind. At this point in history more combinations of families exist than ever before, and the increase in divorce, remarriage, adoption, foster parenting, single parenthood, kinship, and same-sex relationships we are reaching a new epitome in the re-consideration of morals. So why did I abstain incestual relationships? The problem with incest is that it does not foster new friendships and circles of friends and it limits one to severely constrained mental parameters and lines of thought.

Incest is wrong, but let’s propose this, suppose the couple are the only ones left on the planet and in order to propagate mankind incest is a necessary. There is a perfectly moral justification for incest – stating this it becomes obvious that the very concept of incest is one based in morality and this is important for us to remember because morality itself is just as valid as any other physical co-existing nature in existence, even in par with the laws of physics – you don’t just break laws lest there be severe repercussions. There are not enough terminological terms to describe family structures with incestual relationships, the reason is because it is a natural law of nature, that is, only commit incest if nature demands it. Other linguistic terms that may pave way relate to the establishment of notions of families created within families and hence the families that may foster still from such enclosed family environments, ie: sequential families, monotheistic family structures, pooling of values/ideas, and etcetera.

Society thrives on morals, incest is deprived of morals unless nature forces you to deal with it (but albeit at great costs, and in the end of the day right is right so let’s stick to it.
User avatar
Percarus
Member
 
Posts: 653
Joined: 16 Dec 2008
Location: Perth - Australia
Likes received:1
Blog: View Blog (3)


Re: Is it wrong to have sex with your sister?

Postby psionic11 on October 7th, 2012, 8:47 am 

Percarus, much of your argument relies on the need to have a healthy family unit to successfully raise children. Two questions for you then:

1) If a non-traditional couple or group successfully raises well-adjusted children, then is that group both morally and societally acceptable?

Some examples: the single wealthy father who hires a nanny; the clan or extended family where grandparents and uncles/aunts raise the children; an orphanage; a single mother, her sister and her mom; etc. If other successful examples produce well-adjusted children, then this can also include homosexual couples and a brother-sister incestual relationship, correct?

2) If a traditional couple raises children who become highly dysfunctional in society, then is this couple then an abomination?

Since most of your argument assumes that a non-traditional brother-sister unit hypothetically will not be able to raise well-adapted children (because societal consequences hypothetically make it impossible to raise successful children), then is not the dysfunctional traditional couple as morally reprehensible for raising ill-adapted children? What of the couple that unfortunately has children with defects -- autism, cerebral palsy, retardation, Down's syndrome, etc.... is this couple morally guilty for not having healthy children who contribute back to society?

Of course not, but the point does follow from your argument. Your argument, also taken to its logical conclusion, could defend a brother-sister family unit with successful well-adapted children to be superior to a traditional loser husband-wife who beat and neglect their children who then grow up to be misguided criminals. Is this your assessment as well?
User avatar
psionic11
Active Member
 
Posts: 1331
Joined: 15 May 2006
Location: Orlando, FL
Likes received:4


Re: Is it wrong to have sex with your sister?

Postby Percarus on October 7th, 2012, 9:59 am 

psionic11
Sorry, it is well after my bedtime, and I have work tomorrow morning, but I shall try to answer your rebuttal as quickly as possible.

psionic11: 1) If a non-traditional couple or group successfully raises well-adjusted children, then is that group both morally and societally acceptable?

Look, let’s consider the story of Adam and Eve (by the way I do not credit such biblical notions as reality and neither do a lot of churches, they are just ‘fables’) – it is logical that incest must have occurred, if not within the biblical terms but then definitely throughout eons of evolution within the organic kingdom. Henceforth, it has been proven that incestual relationships can foster generations that can survive and thrive and hence live capable lives. However, times have changed, morality has been established as a fact of nature within society and any violation of this is seen as an aberration. For the reasons I stated on my argument before I would not consider it as socially acceptable, not so much for the children, in your assumption the children were raised healthy, after all, they probably lucked out.

I never grew up with my father but I had a close relationship with him and still do. The lack of separation for most of my life (opposing sides of the globe) left me no recourse but to establish different fatherly role models for me to cope (not to mention memories of my father still held for a role model), ie: Conan the Barbarian, its comics, and values in English chivalry. The children of incestual couples would ‘probably’ have to grow up with ‘ignorance’ in the notion that their parents were actually siblings (I think I have seen this in Oprah before, maybe Jerry Springer, can’t remember). I do not know the odds of genetic mutation between siblings but I would predict it is higher than first cousins, which I just do not know. *looks up youtube* Look, you can actually ‘youtube’ ‘incest’ and an array of links will show up, and what can be noted is that in all cases the parents actually hid such incestual natures from their progeny, so unless you can prove to me that an openly incestual relationship bore fruit to stable non-tormented progeny then I see little point as to why I should bother arguing further, but let’s carry on.

psionic11: Some examples: the single wealthy father who hires a nanny; the clan or extended family where grandparents and uncles/aunts raise the children; an orphanage; a single mother, her sister and her mom; etc. If other successful examples produce well-adjusted children, then this can also include homosexual couples and a brother-sister incestual relationship, correct?

No, it is not correct, by the way, I agree that homosexual couples can raise proper children, I am a supporter of gay marriage. But when you delve into the realms of incest you are committing a greater taboo than anything out there but not quite as severe as bestiality. If the ‘environment’ calls for incest then by all means it can be done, it is Force Majeure, and such cases do happen. Now, we could analyse all this by methodical ‘ethics’ criteria, pre-determinants, and directives. Universalising the maxim (a Kantian example) do you think humanity could foster with incest? It can with gay marriage because mutations do not occur due to mutations and surrogates, however this law does not hold valid for incest I am led to believe – and there you have it, that is just one maxim, now pick up your ethics book and think of the others.

psionic11: 2) If a traditional couple raises children who become highly dysfunctional in society, then is this couple then an abomination?

Look, stupidity is an abomination, just look on the ‘religion’ forum and check up “lindoooo’s” threads, hehe. If a traditional couple raises highly dysfunctional children it is because; a) the parents were never fit to be parents, hence not ‘traditional’, b) The environment and Force Majeure, c) Sheer bad luck.

psionic11: Since most of your argument assumes that a non-traditional brother-sister unit hypothetically will not be able to raise well-adapted children (because societal consequences hypothetically make it impossible to raise successful children), then is not the dysfunctional traditional couple as morally reprehensible for raising ill-adapted children? What of the couple that unfortunately has children with defects -- autism, cerebral palsy, retardation, Down's syndrome, etc.... is this couple morally guilty for not having healthy children who contribute back to society?

Listen, if it was up to me I would support the notion of restriction in number of children between couples of more ‘prolific’ races and the encouragement of stable genetic diversity in this world – this would eliminate all traces of racism in the world in some day and may even pave way for admiration of beauty in different obscure races. What I am trying to say is that there are serious moral issues with incest, and it does lead children to become ashamed of their parents over time. Although such children can become successful, rich, stable, and happy, this all may occur with the detrimental side effect of GREAT personal suffering at the shame, embarrassment, and complexes nature can impose out there. I actually am friend’s with a bisexual girl who bore a child with Down’s syndrome, her life, in all effects, became ruined for the next 18 years, and I feel for parents who have to care for disabled children and I believe more government support should be given to such parents in order to relieve the burdens from such traumas.

Think of the case in which a father (or mother) commits incest with his/her child. Think of the implications even! This individual (the growing child) will perceive this very act as being normal, and you may argue, ‘what is wrong with it?’. I am going to be honest, I do not have a good argument to this because at an extreme (maxim) we could visualise a society that would be entirely comprised (or near entirety) of incestual relationships, mayhap not for progeny, but maybe for sexual pleasure. Thing is, morality has been dictated and set firm through the course of history, that is nature, and incest is WRONG and you know it. I further related ‘incest’ to ‘polyandry’ I think/believe. Now, what I am going to ask you is to watch the following Australian cartoon on ‘youtube’ (very good series, watch them all if you can find them), and if from this cartoon you can ‘see’ or ‘perceive’ the ills of ‘polyandry’, even in the slightest sense (after all, this is just a miniscule fraction of a hint of what such immorality can do) then maybe you can understand the implications of ‘incest’ in society:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuVS0b3Cseg

psionic11: Of course not, but the point does follow from your argument. Your argument, also taken to its logical conclusion, could defend a brother-sister family unit with successful well-adapted children to be superior to a traditional loser husband-wife who beat and neglect their children who then grow up to be misguided criminals. Is this your assessment as well?

I think you are missing the point altogether... Sure, if the children are socially secluded and conditioned to a GREAT extent they can indeed succeed and become apparently ‘super people’, but do you understand the deformation in mentality that has to be taken place for this to happen, and do you understand that such strict conditioning (I use this term wrong, I mean brainwashing) defeats the very ethical nature of ‘free-will’ and hence individuality and ‘true-happiness’?

Ok, that is my spiel, enjoy the toon(s)... :-)
User avatar
Percarus
Member
 
Posts: 653
Joined: 16 Dec 2008
Location: Perth - Australia
Likes received:1
Blog: View Blog (3)


Re: Is it wrong to have sex with your sister?

Postby edy420 on October 8th, 2012, 7:20 am 

Deftil wrote:I'd seen this before but it came up yesterday in a book I'm currently reading.

Julie and Mark are brother and sister. They are traveling together in France on summer vacation from college. One night they are staying alone in a cabin near the beach. They decide that it would be interesting and fun if they tried making love. At the very least, it would be a new experience for each of them. Julie was already taking birth control pills, but Mark uses a condom too, just to be safe. They both enjoy making love, but they decide never to do it again. They keep that night as a special secret, which makes them feel even closer to each other. What do you think about that? Was it ok for them to make love?


Jonathan Haidt came up with this scenario and we can get into it more later if we want to but now I'm curious about what people's responses are to the question "Was it ok for them to make love?" and and their reasoning for them.


From a parents point of view, its uncomfortable to think that my children could decide to have sex with each other.
Morally there is nothing wrong with it, apart from being too lazy to go out and meet other people to have relations with.

I think the risk of ruining a perfectly healthy family relationship is overlooked a little too much.
Sure they could forget about it, but as mentioned above this encounter may upset any future relations with other people.
Perhaps we just don't have enough information on these outcomes in this situation to be able to comment on this complication, so I think it better to avoid it for this reason also.
Most of us may only comment on what could should or would happen to their relationship, but it is hard to find any evidence.

In the example given, there are options other than sleeping with each other, so If I did have any say on the decision it would be, why not look at alternatives..
Phone sex and masturbation for example.

Reason has its uses, but so does faith and superstition.
Imo reason in this situation needs to be left out of the equation for the sake of sanity.
Incest, sex with children and sex with animals imo share a similar taboo and I'd rather just leave it at that.
User avatar
edy420
Active Member
 
Posts: 1004
Joined: 09 Jul 2010
Location: Brisbane, Oz
Likes received:11


Re: Is it wrong to have sex with your sister?

Postby Deftil on October 9th, 2012, 3:24 pm 

Thanks for your replies everyone.

Jonathan Haidt developed this scenario and other similar ones to better understand how people make moral judgments. He felt that the prevailing "rationalist model" where people make conscious, well thought out judgments based on moral reasoning was largely incorrect. When subjects were presented with the above scenario for example, he found that most replied that it was wrong for the siblings to have sex even though they couldn't give a well-reasoned explanation for why.
Eventually, many people say something like, "I don't know, I can't explain it, I just know it's wrong."

This led Haidt to form the Social Intuitionist approach which holds that people normally make moral judgments based on intuition and gut feelings, and that reasoned thought processes given for moral judgments are simply after-the-fact rationalizations created to defend their intuitive responses.

Jonathan Haidt wikipedia page
Jonathan Haidt home page
Social intuitionism wikipedia page
"The Emotional Dog and Its Rational Tail" the paper where Haidt explains his position

I agree with Haidt's assessment of moral judgments and it's a big part of why I think specific schools of thought on normative ethics are nonsense. (in a way) One can claim to subscribe to any particular ethical view, but when it comes time make a moral decision, people don't usually carefully consider the specifics of the situation and how they fall in line with their chosen ethical view, they simply give their immediate reaction, based on feeling and intuition. That said, even though I feel that's what people normally do, it's not what people always do, and perhaps it's not what people should do.

As for my personal response to the scenario presented in this thread, I feel in this hypothetical case, where all the specifics are accounted for (two forms of birth control used - no chance of pregancy, they both enjoy the sex, they both keep it a secret, no negative long term effects on the relationship) these siblings having sex is not immoral. However real life experiences don't occur in a vacuum separate from real life problems. Practically speaking I don't think it's a good idea for siblings to have sex, but if absolutely no one gets hurt in the process I can't say that the act is unethical. My intuition tells me that something is wrong with siblings having sex, but my rational side tells me that it isn't necessarily wrong.
User avatar
Deftil
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 1708
Joined: 13 Mar 2008
Location: Virginia, USA


Re: Is it wrong to have sex with your sister?

Postby DragonFly on October 9th, 2012, 3:28 pm 

Sometimes it's not appreciated when one has sex with a friend's sister.

I didn't have a sister, but when in sixth grade I was in love with a nun, Sister Theophelia, and so was Father Kramer, as it turned out, for they ran off together. Darn, had I known her 'unpure' inclinations, I could have walked her home to the convent.
User avatar
DragonFly
Active Member
 
Posts: 1637
Joined: 04 Aug 2012
Likes received:9


Re: Is it wrong to have sex with your sister?

Postby dreddred5 on March 21st, 2013, 6:48 pm 

im not going to get into the human ethics behind it (i have two older sisters who really get my motor running. but iv never acted on said feelings) however, nature tells us brother and sister are not sepposed to mate. there is a very high chance of deformity in inbred children. morally wrong? maybe not. but chemically wrong? yes it is.
dreddred5
Forum Neophyte
 
Posts: 7
Joined: 21 Feb 2013
Location: Canada, N.B.


Re: Is it wrong to have sex with your sister?

Postby Watson on March 22nd, 2013, 12:19 am 

From your posts here, I'm concerned for your sisters well being. I had a friend in a similar circumstance and it did not go well, in the end for him. But it is good you are speaking of it rather than acting.
User avatar
Watson
Resident Member
 
Posts: 2989
Joined: 19 Apr 2009
Location: Earth, middle of the top half, but only briefly each 24 hours.
Likes received:22


Re: Is it wrong to have sex with your sister?

Postby TaliaAS on April 3rd, 2013, 1:45 pm 

I think it depends on whether or not you are determining the reaction on a personal moral level or by social implications. A lot of what we determine to be right or wrong go by social implications. Racism, for example. If you were to make a joke about another race, you may be, in all honesty, just having a laugh. It's not rascist until someone gets offended. As with this case, the brother and sister were both of legal consenting age, both sober and conscious, and used protection. They were well aware of what they were doing and were just experimenting. Social standards aside, they were really just doing a study. Bringing social levels back in, this will become wrong, because society sees it as so. It goes back to religion and taboo. Many religious cultures see it as wrong, and other cultures see it as a misguidance on their moral compasses. However, if you do not belong to any of these religious groups, your personal morals should be based on those beliefs. It's not an offensive situation, until someone gets offended. Then it becomes a social isue.

However, if you try to determine whether it was right or wrong based on your personal moral beliefs, you have to take in to consideration where you draw the line on what is right or wrong. What do you consider to be normal? Thievery? Lying? Rascism? In each of these categories, there are sub-categories and you need to determine what exactly do you internally believe to be right and wrong. When it comes to sex, do you think it was wrong for these two to have sex? Is it alright for same sex marriages and relationships? Is it all right for inter-species relationships?

When it comes to these topics, i believe, that such an act should only be judge by the personage involved, and if neither of the two had any such issue with it, then personally, i don't think we can determine if it were right or wrong. Everyone's moral compasses are different, and if the act didn't fault theirs, then so be it.
TaliaAS
Forum Neophyte
 
Posts: 8
Joined: 03 Apr 2013
Location: Off the Grid


Re: Is it wrong to have sex with your sister?

Postby Watson on April 3rd, 2013, 2:33 pm 

It's not an offensive situation, until someone gets offended. Then it becomes a social issue.


Is racist humor ok? It seems you are saying it is ok, depending on who hears it. I think it is more than just having a laugh. There is a racist attitude not to far away, which is not so much ok, as you seem to think.
User avatar
Watson
Resident Member
 
Posts: 2989
Joined: 19 Apr 2009
Location: Earth, middle of the top half, but only briefly each 24 hours.
Likes received:22


Re: Is it wrong to have sex with your sister?

Postby TaliaAS on April 3rd, 2013, 2:56 pm 

Watson wrote:
It's not an offensive situation, until someone gets offended. Then it becomes a social issue.


Is racist humor ok? It seems you are saying it is ok, depending on who hears it. I think it is more than just having a laugh. There is a racist attitude not to far away, which is not so much ok, as you seem to think.


I think you are misinterpreting what I am saying. I am not advocating rascism, nor do I advocate homophobia, bullying, any thing with a label that is such. What I am saying is nothing can be defined until it is given a label. When colors were created, nothing was blue until someone created the name. Was it a color? Yes. Was it defined? No. When people were tasting things, was sugar sweet until someone came up with the word 'sweet'? Did sugar have a flavor? Yes? Was it a defined flavor, i.e. 'sweet'? No. If you were to tell me a joke in which a woman is put in her place, is it initially offensive? No. If I decide to call it out and say that I am offended by the joke, it is then and therefore offensive, as I gave it the label 'offensive.'

In my initial argument, I was getting at the point that nothing can be defined as right or wrong, until someone defines something as such. Until that point, it is an action. And given the action was done in private between two adult individuals, they must be the ones to pinpoint whether it is right or wrong.
TaliaAS
Forum Neophyte
 
Posts: 8
Joined: 03 Apr 2013
Location: Off the Grid


Re: Is it wrong to have sex with your sister?

Postby Watson on April 3rd, 2013, 3:58 pm 

That being the case, I'm not sure what it has to do with the question. It is not wrong until someone says it is?
User avatar
Watson
Resident Member
 
Posts: 2989
Joined: 19 Apr 2009
Location: Earth, middle of the top half, but only briefly each 24 hours.
Likes received:22


Re: Is it wrong to have sex with your sister?

Postby TaliaAS on April 3rd, 2013, 4:57 pm 

I was just using it as a point of reference. I could've used any variety of examples. Bullying for example. Where does society draw the line of it being playful teasing, such as between brother and sister, and when do we put our foot down and say enough is enough. Or gay marriages for example. Religious factors aside, Why does society say it is wrong? As with a brother and sister sleeping together. Is it morally wrong because we say it is wrong, but only because we are disgusted by it, or do we actually have definitive proof that it is wrong. Do we pop labels on things we do not understand, or things we have not taken the time to study? Do we judge people based on the color of their skin, their religions, the sex? Yes all of these things are true. I never once said that racism was right. I simply asked that if someone were to tell a joke, is it labeled as racist immediately, or until someone labels it as such? The point i was trying to make with the brother/sister sleeping together was is it wrong immediately, or until someone labels it as such?
TaliaAS
Forum Neophyte
 
Posts: 8
Joined: 03 Apr 2013
Location: Off the Grid


Re: Is it wrong to have sex with your sister?

Postby Kayla on April 5th, 2013, 9:36 pm 

dreddred5 wrote:im not going to get into the human ethics behind it (i have two older sisters who really get my motor running. but iv never acted on said feelings) however, nature tells us brother and sister are not sepposed to mate. there is a very high chance of deformity in inbred children. morally wrong? maybe not. but chemically wrong? yes it is.


a man and a woman in their 40s both having history of horrible genetic illnesses like tay sachs in their families - no one gets upset if they have sex although most people will think they should use birth control

so how is a brother and a sister having sex more wrong than that?

but st augistine may have been on to something - his view was that the love of a brother and a sister combined with sexual love would produce excessive lust

i have a twin brother and we are very close - to say that i love him very much does not quite describe it - i am not sexually interested in him but i can see how adding that feeling on top of what i feel would be overwhelming it would be too much
Kayla
Member
 
Posts: 115
Joined: 04 Apr 2013


Re: Is it wrong to have sex with your sister?

Postby Kayla on April 9th, 2013, 4:15 am 

TaliaAS wrote:The point i was trying to make with the brother/sister sleeping together was is it wrong immediately, or until someone labels it as such?


if someone says its wrong and you ask them why they will give you some sort of reason

so what they mean by 'this is wrong' must mean that it was wrong even before they uttered 'this is wrong'
Kayla
Member
 
Posts: 115
Joined: 04 Apr 2013


Re: Is it wrong to have sex with your sister?

Postby Watson on April 9th, 2013, 11:10 am 

What is defined as wrong must come from a consensus, from with in the community or culture. There are many other things we may think of as absolutely wrong, and yet there are other cultures that find it acceptable and understandable behavior, as say honor killing.

How insecure are these male animals that they would want this for their family.
I think what is "wrong" is or was wrong before someone says it is wrong.
User avatar
Watson
Resident Member
 
Posts: 2989
Joined: 19 Apr 2009
Location: Earth, middle of the top half, but only briefly each 24 hours.
Likes received:22


Re: Is it wrong to have sex with your sister?

Postby CanadysPeak on April 9th, 2013, 12:01 pm 

TaliaAS wrote:I was just using it as a point of reference. I could've used any variety of examples. Bullying for example. Where does society draw the line of it being playful teasing, such as between brother and sister, and when do we put our foot down and say enough is enough. Or gay marriages for example. Religious factors aside, Why does society say it is wrong? As with a brother and sister sleeping together. Is it morally wrong because we say it is wrong, but only because we are disgusted by it, or do we actually have definitive proof that it is wrong. Do we pop labels on things we do not understand, or things we have not taken the time to study? Do we judge people based on the color of their skin, their religions, the sex? Yes all of these things are true. I never once said that racism was right. I simply asked that if someone were to tell a joke, is it labeled as racist immediately, or until someone labels it as such? The point i was trying to make with the brother/sister sleeping together was is it wrong immediately, or until someone labels it as such?


I think I understand your point. I am from a generation (World war II) that thought it OK to drink and drive. Comedians had skits about drunk drivers, cops often let off drunk drivers, it was acceptable. Then our attitudes changed (probably as a result of MADD). Our beliefs were challenged from outside, and we became aware that others thought that behavior wrong. Gradually, most of us began to think it wrong also. Now it seems that it should have been self-evident.
CanadysPeak
Resident Expert
 
Posts: 5448
Joined: 31 Dec 2008
Likes received:54


Re: Is it wrong to have sex with your sister?

Postby Kayla on April 9th, 2013, 3:47 pm 

Watson wrote:What is defined as wrong must come from a consensus, from with in the community or culture. There are many other things we may think of as absolutely wrong,


doesnt sound right

if you ask someone 'why is x wrong' and they say 'it is because most people think it is wrong' you will probably think that they did not understand the question

and usually when people say 'x is wrong' they do not mean 'most people in my society think it is wrong'

so i would say that your definition of 'wrong' simply does not correspond to how the word is used


and yet there are other cultures that find it acceptable and understandable behavior, as say honor killing.
[/quote]

yes but their reasons for it refer to something beyond the mere fact that it is acceptable
Kayla
Member
 
Posts: 115
Joined: 04 Apr 2013


Re: Is it wrong to have sex with your sister?

Postby Watson on April 9th, 2013, 6:17 pm 

Well kayla, as Canadys suggested drinking and driving at one time was socially acceptable and therefore not wrong. Times have changed and it is not socially acceptable, therefore it is wrong. Wrong by social standards of behavior.
yes but their reasons for it refer to something beyond the mere fact that it is acceptable
something beyond, like being embarrassed and then it is acceptable to kill the child? It is socially acceptable child abuse. There are no reasons for it.
User avatar
Watson
Resident Member
 
Posts: 2989
Joined: 19 Apr 2009
Location: Earth, middle of the top half, but only briefly each 24 hours.
Likes received:22


Re: Is it wrong to have sex with your sister?

Postby JohnD on April 9th, 2013, 9:03 pm 

I believe as a society we all agree that sex with a family member outside of the traditional husband and wife is wrong. This is obviously a decision that as a society we have come to, wether we look at it from a social aspect or a religious aspect. It isn't even a matter of why it is wrong though there are very strong arguments for it to be considered wrong.
My understanding of ethical and moral considerations are that they reflect the rules of a society and are a compass for everyone within that society to follow and be directed by.
For example: The pollutants being churned out by countless engines every morning and evening is wrong and most people I believe would agree however it is not as yet socially or religiously unacceptable even though we know and understand the harm it does not only to those living at present but future generations as well. Until it becomes unacceptable people will keep doing it and the simplest of excuses will always be that they have little or no choice or that it is something they've always done.
The same can be said of cigarette smoke. Nowadays it is socially unacceptable to smoke in a confined space or in the company of non smokers or children. We look back a few years and no one would have seen any problem with doing either.
In some countries today women can be stoned to death for actions that are considered immoral while in western countries the same acts would hardly countenance a blink no matter their religion.
JohnD
Member
 
Posts: 593
Joined: 31 May 2012
Location: Australia
Likes received:2
Blog: View Blog (2)


Re: Is it wrong to have sex with your sister?

Postby BadgerJelly on April 11th, 2013, 11:24 am 

For me yes AND repulsive! For others I guess that is their ethical choice.
User avatar
BadgerJelly
Resident Member
 
Posts: 2482
Joined: 14 Mar 2012
Likes received:8


Re: Is it wrong to have sex with your sister?

Postby mtbturtle on April 11th, 2013, 1:00 pm 

I dunno seems like an important relationship to put at risk for something "interesting" and "fun" a "new experience".
User avatar
mtbturtle
Philosophy Admin
 
Posts: 8553
Joined: 16 Dec 2005
Location: Northwoods, USA
Likes received:30


Re: Is it wrong to have sex with your sister?

Postby Kayla on April 11th, 2013, 1:34 pm 

mtbturtle wrote:I dunno seems like an important relationship to put at risk for something "interesting" and "fun" a "new experience".


but could it be that irrational attitudes towards incest would be the reason mark and julies experimentation could put their relationship at risk

and then you can hardly justify one irrationality by appealing to another
Kayla
Member
 
Posts: 115
Joined: 04 Apr 2013


Re: Is it wrong to have sex with your sister?

Postby mtbturtle on April 11th, 2013, 2:10 pm 

Sex can change relationships. The risks seems many, varied and hard to predict.
User avatar
mtbturtle
Philosophy Admin
 
Posts: 8553
Joined: 16 Dec 2005
Location: Northwoods, USA
Likes received:30


Re: Is it wrong to have sex with your sister?

Postby Kayla on April 12th, 2013, 12:23 pm 

mtbturtle wrote:Sex can change relationships. The risks seems many, varied and hard to predict.


true but this goes for all kinds of relationship

if you are best friends with someone since you are 4 and at 17 you decide to have sex that changes the relationship incredibly and in unpredictable ways

that is not a reason to not have sex is it
Kayla
Member
 
Posts: 115
Joined: 04 Apr 2013


Re: Is it wrong to have sex with your sister?

Postby mtbturtle on April 12th, 2013, 2:56 pm 

Kayla, I think it could be a reason not to.
User avatar
mtbturtle
Philosophy Admin
 
Posts: 8553
Joined: 16 Dec 2005
Location: Northwoods, USA
Likes received:30


Next

Return to Ethics

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google Adsense [Bot] and 12 guests