is it bad to use the word fuck?

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is it bad to use the word fuck?

Postby Olala on February 23rd, 2012, 8:26 am 

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Re: is it bad to use the word ****?

Postby Keep_Relentless on March 10th, 2012, 6:23 am 

Goodness and badness are entirely subjective, though very much real factors.
The only subjective realm existing to the individual is the individual's own. Therefore, you decide, whether swearing in a given situation will give a greater result towards the end of your happiness, yes? (:

Objectively, swearing as a taboo is pitiful, a delusion of emotion from experience and the tradition therein. I personally find it very irritating when one takes offense at swearing, though of course they have no control over it (but then I have no control over my irritation! :)).

On a side note, I saw that you are home-schooled, and I am vneowhsddf jealous.
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Re: is it bad to use the word ****?

Postby Lomax on March 10th, 2012, 8:00 am 

Olala wrote:is it bad to use the word ****?


Only in front of your grandma.

Apparently, swearing has a painkiller effect.

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Re: is it bad to use the word ****?

Postby Watson on March 10th, 2012, 8:58 am 

They suggest that the accelerated heart rates of the volunteers repeating the swear word may indicate an increase in aggression, in a classic fight-or-flight response of downplaying a weakness or threat in order to deal with it.


I would have thought it was the expression itself, regardless of what was said, that would do it. May be swearing has a more ingrained meaning of hostilty. Holy Sugar could have the same effect if the vounteers really meant it.
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Re: is it bad to use the word ****?

Postby Keep_Relentless on March 10th, 2012, 10:34 pm 

Watson wrote:
They suggest that the accelerated heart rates of the volunteers repeating the swear word may indicate an increase in aggression, in a classic fight-or-flight response of downplaying a weakness or threat in order to deal with it.


I would have thought it was the expression itself, regardless of what was said, that would do it. May be swearing has a more ingrained meaning of hostilty. Holy Sugar could have the same effect if the vounteers really meant it.

It is the expression itself, though it is tempered with, as I say, "experience and tradition". There isn't nearly such a background to trigger for adrenaline in saying "holy sugar!" but if there had been, no problem.
It's another link. Surrounding every word is the nature (emotional) of the recollections of every known instance of its usage.
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Re: is it bad to use the word ****?

Postby NORMLme on March 11th, 2012, 12:42 pm 

it is on this site... :\
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Re: is it bad to use the word ****?

Postby Watson on March 11th, 2012, 5:48 pm 

I once sworn in front of my boss of 10+ years, not even one of the really bad ones, but his reaction was surprise because he never heard such a thing from me. Out with friends and in private I can hear and rebute with the best of them, without being offended. Seems like the apporpriatness of occassion comes to play here. If your use of this type of language sets you apart in the growd, it is likely inappropriate based on a social norm of the occassion.
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Re: is it bad to use the word ****?

Postby Keep_Relentless on March 11th, 2012, 7:07 pm 

Watson wrote:I once sworn in front of my boss of 10+ years, not even one of the really bad ones, but his reaction was surprise because he never heard such a thing from me. Out with friends and in private I can hear and rebute with the best of them, without being offended. Seems like the apporpriatness of occassion comes to play here. If your use of this type of language sets you apart in the growd, it is likely inappropriate based on a social norm of the occassion.

But why are these norms followed, even if they are beyond narrow-minded, destructive even? The great raiding parties of history never questioned the "norm" of plunder and rape? Among a quadrillion examples. This is my irritation speaking, but I think, being "civilised", we ought to accept a certain harmless sound without a heart attack rather than putting a harmful label on nothing and applying massively undue attention to it.
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Re: is it bad to use the word ****?

Postby Lomax on March 11th, 2012, 7:59 pm 

Keep_Relentless wrote:This is my irritation speaking, but I think, being "civilised", we ought to accept a certain harmless sound without a heart attack rather than putting a harmful label on nothing and applying massively undue attention to it.

Agreed. I think it's actually destructive to create taboo language; it's an unnecessary restriction on a harmless and natural freedom, and it cripples one of the most beautiful things we have - language.

On the other hand, this makes the very act of resisting the taboo more powerful, I think. In the same way that nudity would become banal if it were ubiquituous, so would swear-words, I think. And then perhaps we wouldn't have such an easy way to vent our anger as simply saying "fuck" or whatever.

I'll add some caveats. I don't think it's ethical to go to a funeral and go "he was a dickhead", and I don't think a priest marrying a mixed race couple should be saying "you may now kiss the nigger". Whether or not people should be getting offended by certain bits of language, they do, and we have to be sensitive to their ingrained feelings. (Perhaps I am not living up to my own standards with this post, but I'm trying to make an explicit point.)
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Re: is it bad to use the word ****?

Postby Keep_Relentless on March 11th, 2012, 8:28 pm 

Lomax wrote:
Keep_Relentless wrote:This is my irritation speaking, but I think, being "civilised", we ought to accept a certain harmless sound without a heart attack rather than putting a harmful label on nothing and applying massively undue attention to it.

Agreed. I think it's actually destructive to create taboo language; it's an unnecessary restriction on a harmless and natural freedom, and it cripples one of the most beautiful things we have - language.

On the other hand, this makes the very act of resisting the taboo more powerful, I think. In the same way that nudity would become banal if it were ubiquituous, so would swear-words, I think. And then perhaps we wouldn't have such an easy way to vent our anger as simply saying "****" or whatever.

I'll add some caveats. I don't think it's ethical to go to a funeral and go "he was a dickhead", and I don't think a priest marrying a mixed race couple should be saying "you may now kiss the nigger". Whether or not people should be getting offended by certain bits of language, they do, and we have to be sensitive to their ingrained feelings. (Perhaps I am not living up to my own standards with this post, but I'm trying to make an explicit point.)

Yes they do, this is the situation that we have, the tradition. Personally, I will appease others only so far as necessary towards the end of happiness. If saying "he was a dickhead" would have a greater result in my world, even considering others' reactions etc, I find it as justified as anything. Respecting the deceased is another norm I would gladly criticise anyhow. :P Racism on the other hand, while as incurable as any type of discrimination i.e. distinction, should I think be less focused on the aggression side, if not both. These act as side notes anyhow, I'll only defend them if they're addressed.

So now we are on the question, "when is it necessary to refrain from swearing?", with a general "No" to "Is it bad to use the word ****?", I believe?
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Re: is it bad to use the word ****?

Postby Watson on March 11th, 2012, 9:47 pm 

So now we are on the question, "when is it necessary to refrain from swearing?", with a general "No" to "Is it bad to use the word ****?", I believe?


I agree, generally, it's not bad or even a big deal. I had a neighbour that had the worst language, all time time. Was it bad? No it was just his way of expressing things and we didn't hold it against him. But you have to admitt there are times to clean it up. For me that time is in front of the children, polite company, people I don't know well, people I work for or with. But out in the corn field with good long time friends it an f'n beer whether you want one, have one or are offering to get one for others. Just the way it is.
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Re: is it bad to use the word ****?

Postby Keep_Relentless on March 11th, 2012, 10:52 pm 

Watson wrote:
So now we are on the question, "when is it necessary to refrain from swearing?", with a general "No" to "Is it bad to use the word ****?", I believe?


I agree, generally, it's not bad or even a big deal. I had a neighbour that had the worst language, all time time. Was it bad? No it was just his way of expressing things and we didn't hold it against him. But you have to admitt there are times to clean it up. For me that time is in front of the children, polite company, people I don't know well, people I work for or with. But out in the corn field with good long time friends it an f'n beer whether you want one, have one or are offering to get one for others. Just the way it is.

Okay, then let's address the handy examples you supplied?

"Swearing in front of children" is considered bad because they have not learned discretion through experience, yes? And why is this discretion necessary? Because of these feelings. So if none of the others apply this doesn't either, but assuming it does, what are the "rules" of it? How do you know whether a person has learned necessary discretion? How do you define necessary discretion?

"Polite company". Manners, of course. I am quite dismissive of manners generally. They are mannerisms, ritual, often ill-founded. Why must we imitate for imitation's sake? Only to appease when absolutely necessary for happiness, as I take it.

"People I don't know well". Well since this society is filled with the notion that swearing is horrible and if you say **** you ought to be sent to a special place miles below ground to burn and cry and suffer until the end of time, SOME evidence of a person is needed before swearing, though evidence of another person will never be definite (since we cannot experience their mind).

Respect for superiors. Just another mannerism.
Thoughts?
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Re: is it bad to use the word ****?

Postby Watson on March 11th, 2012, 11:13 pm 

Like it or not, others will judge a person by what they know. In this case what comes out of a persons mouth is one of the determining factors. If someone speaks well, conveyes concise thoughts and articulates them well then that person would be judged as intellegent, maybe even popular in the growd. So if someone, even the same person speaks the same words punctuated with profanities, that person will be judged of lower intellegence and with less respect. (By some) I have watched some cable reality shows and they language follws free. Do I judge? No. Do I care? No. Comes down to does it matter what other people think? If the answer is no then speak your mind as you see fit. I just find it unnecessay.
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Re: is it bad to use the word ****?

Postby Keep_Relentless on March 12th, 2012, 12:32 am 

Watson wrote:Like it or not, others will judge a person by what they know. In this case what comes out of a persons mouth is one of the determining factors. If someone speaks well, conveyes concise thoughts and articulates them well then that person would be judged as intellegent, maybe even popular in the growd. So if someone, even the same person speaks the same words punctuated with profanities, that person will be judged of lower intellegence and with less respect. (By some) I have watched some cable reality shows and they language follws free. Do I judge? No. Do I care? No. Comes down to does it matter what other people think? If the answer is no then speak your mind as you see fit. I just find it unnecessay.

Well said. There's a "time and place", situation, for all expressions isn't there... which are determined (both the expressions and respective situations) by the unchangeable past. As for the future, though, I'm all for acquiring and spreading acceptance and understanding of expressions, why should disadvantageous norms be allowed to flourish, yet also how may they be fought or countered...?
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Re: is it bad to use the word ****?

Postby Watson on March 12th, 2012, 12:56 am 

In this case, I dont think they need to be fought or countered. Perhaps a maturing past experience evolves into something more exceptable, and a concencess of the population at large developes.

why should disadvantageous norms be allowed to flourish, yet also how may they be fought or countered...?


I think it is called growing up. Some don't want to, and fight the change. Some think that constant use of profanities is a weak mind expressing itself. Unless you have a hammer in one hand and a blue/bleeding thumb on the other, then swearing as a personality trait is not a positive thing.
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Re: is it bad to use the word ****?

Postby Keep_Relentless on March 12th, 2012, 1:21 am 

Watson wrote:In this case, I dont think they need to be fought or countered. Perhaps a maturing past experience evolves into something more exceptable, and a concencess of the population at large developes.
I think it is called growing up. Some don't want to, and fight the change. Some think that constant use of profanities is a weak mind expressing itself.

This consensus though is very limited, VERY, the imperfection of society is monumental... I do not mean it so judgementally, but there you are. Perhaps an arrogant one (or perhaps it is arrogant to say so!), but a quote all the same to consider, "And you may as soon hope to leave all the day labourers and tradesmen, the spinsters and dairy-maids, perfect mathematicians, as to have them perfect in ethics this way: having plain commands is the sure and only course to bring them to obedience and practice: the greatest part cannot know, and therefore they must believe."~John Locke

Watson wrote:swearing as a personality trait is not a positive thing.

Then is it strictly negative, simply because others cannot interpret it but negatively? Or even, will not? This is why we are conversing! Yet I gather that that was a summation.
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Re: is it bad to use the word ****?

Postby Watson on March 12th, 2012, 2:09 am 

The consencus is a majority of like minded persons, so no not limited, unless the subject is. And your quote needs some context, if not a more complete expressions, at least for me.
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Re: is it bad to use the word ****?

Postby Keep_Relentless on March 12th, 2012, 2:43 am 

Watson wrote:The consencus is a majority of like minded persons, so no not limited, unless the subject is. And your quote needs some context, if not a more complete expressions, at least for me.

What I mean is that the word of the masses is by no means flawless. Objectively, the fact that the majority votes for an option gives no weight (of correctness) to that option whatsoever, and this seems quite obvious through history's mistakes.

The quote is basically that the "day labourers and tradesmen and spinsters and dairy-farmers" must be told what to do with clear instructions, because they cannot be expected to come to ethically perfect conclusions. It refers particularly to the foundations of chief monotheistic religions... asking: perhaps it is better that one divinely inspired man rule the masses through correct instruction, than the masses rule themselves?
It is leaning towards tyranny. However the modern man knows that the masses rule undeniably, through force if needs must, because of the modern conception of revolution and protest generally (though they are still subjugated by the system instigated by the powers that be). I suppose technology could even the mass odds, or better.

This may seem off-topic but I think not, it is quite relevant to the nature of social norms... a very fine line between the masses controlling government and the masses controlling interaction, if a true line at all!
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Re: is it bad to use the word ****?

Postby Keep_Relentless on March 12th, 2012, 2:55 am 

Lomax wrote:I don't think it's ethical to go to a funeral and go "he was a dickhead",

Coming back here for a second, I recall many cases of serial killers, terrorists and others who had their deaths widely anticipated and celebrated. There are many holes when we equate emotion with logic. Such as the "sanctity of life"... George Carlin (comedian, 2nd "greatest" of all time, R.I.P. 2008) made an amusing case on that one in particular xD Just in case you care to read, no problem, I am getting carried away, but conversation must travel. He speaks a LOT of garbage, but meh:

"But you know, the longer you listen to this abortion debate, the more you hear this phrase 'sanctity of life'. You've heard that. Sanctity of life. You believe in it? Personally, I think it's a bunch of shit. Well, I mean, life is sacred? Who said so? God? Hey, if you read history, you realize that God is one of the leading causes of death. Has been for thousands of years. Hindus, Muslims, Jews, Christians all taking turns killing each other 'cause God told them it was a good idea. The sword of God, the blood of the land, vengeance is mine. Millions of dead motherfuckers. Millions of dead motherfuckers all because they gave the wrong answer to the God question. 'You believe in God?' 'No.' Boom. Dead. 'You believe in God?' 'Yes.' 'You believe in my God? 'No.' Boom. Dead. 'My God has a bigger dick than your God!'
Thousands of years. Thousands of years, and all the best wars, too. The bloodiest, most brutal wars fought, all based on religious hatred. Which is fine with me. Hey, any time a bunch of holy people want to kill each other I'm a happy guy.But don't be giving me all this shit about the sanctity of life. I mean, even if there were such a thing, I don't think it's something you can blame on God. No, you know where the sanctity of life came from? We made it up. You know why? 'Cause we're alive. Self-interest.
Living people have a strong interest in promoting the idea that somehow life is sacred. You don't see Abbott and Costello running around, talking about this shit, do you? We're not hearing a whole lot from Mussolini on the subject. What's the latest from JFK? Not a goddamn thing. 'Cause JFK, Mussolini and Abbott and Costello are fucking dead. They're fucking dead. And dead people give less than a shit about the sanctity of life. Only living people care about it so the whole thing grows out of a completely biased point of view. It's a self serving, man-made bullshit story.
It's one of these things we tell ourselves so we'll feel noble. Life is sacred. Makes you feel noble. Well let me ask you this: if everything that ever lived is dead, and everything alive is gonna die, where does the sacred part come in? I'm having trouble with that. 'Cause, I mean, even with all this stuff we preach about the sanctity of life, we don't practice it. We don't practice it. Look at what we'd kill: Mosquitoes and flies. 'Cause they're pests. Lions and tigers. 'Cause it's fun! Chickens and pigs. 'Cause we're hungry. Pheasants and quails. 'Cause it's fun. And we're hungry. And people. We kill people... 'Cause they're pests. And it's fun!
And you might have noticed something else. The sanctity of life doesn't seem to apply to cancer cells, does it? You rarely see a bumper sticker that says 'Save the tumors.'. Or 'I brake for advanced melanoma.'. No, viruses, mold, mildew, maggots, fungus, weeds, E. Coli bacteria, the crabs. Nothing sacred about those things. So at best the sanctity of life is kind of a selective thing. We get to choose which forms of life we feel are sacred, and we get to kill the rest. Pretty neat deal, huh? You know how we got it? We made the whole fucking thing up!"~George Carlin
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Re: is it bad to use the word ****?

Postby Watson on March 12th, 2012, 3:11 am 

What do serial killers and terrorists have to do with this, much less George Carlon? You do remenber the topic?
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Re: is it bad to use the word ****?

Postby Keep_Relentless on March 12th, 2012, 3:23 am 

Watson wrote:What do serial killers and terrorists have to do with this, much less George Carlon? You do remenber the topic?

Hahahah :)
Let's see...
There are some individuals, such as serial killers and terrorists, towards whom social norms shift, and what is usually unacceptable is accepted, such as swearing. :P
Since swearing relates indirectly to wills, whether one should swear or not and considerations of multiple people and differing perspectives, emotions are of paramount importance, and in the great scheme of wills we have the "sanctity of life", from emotion, to which George Carlin referred. xP
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Re: is it bad to use the word ****?

Postby Watson on March 12th, 2012, 4:21 am 

You seem to have a bent opinion on things, but willingnes to impose it on others. You like to swear and that is your right. My right is to ignore and avoid you. You have an unpleasant, possiply distructive personality, or such treats, so again I avoid you. You said you were a student. Where?
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Re: is it bad to use the word ****?

Postby Keep_Relentless on March 12th, 2012, 4:35 am 

Watson wrote:You seem to have a bent opinion on things, but willingnes to impose it on others. You like to swear and that is your right. My right is to ignore and avoid you. You have an unpleasant, possiply distructive personality, or such treats, so again I avoid you. You said you were a student. Where?

Hm... I am more willing to listen, assuming I am able to speak of myself? :) I will justify presumption on the grounds of ignorance, which cannot be helped, and thought-provocation, which in turn cures ignorance. Unpleasant and destructive... they are two subjective terms, but welcome.
I will hold that you are wrong on the count of my swearing however. I don't enjoy it, the contrary, it is poor expression in my opinion, only emphasis in some extreme cases.
Australia, NSW, and from where is the sudden locale curiosity?
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Re: is it bad to use the word ****?

Postby Watson on March 12th, 2012, 5:08 am 

Hm... I am more willing to listen, assuming I am able to speak of myself? :) I will justify presumption on the grounds of ignorance, which cannot be helped, and thought-provocation, which in turn cures ignorance. Unpleasant and destructive... they are two subjective terms, but welcome.

So I'm right here...

I will hold that you are wrong on the count of my swearing however. I don't enjoy it, the contrary, it is poor expression in my opinion, only emphasis in some extreme cases.


but wrong here...but earlier I was right?

I was just thinking of the time a student would be up is all.
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Re: is it bad to use the word ****?

Postby Keep_Relentless on March 12th, 2012, 5:38 am 

Watson wrote:
Hm... I am more willing to listen, assuming I am able to speak of myself? :) I will justify presumption on the grounds of ignorance, which cannot be helped, and thought-provocation, which in turn cures ignorance. Unpleasant and destructive... they are two subjective terms, but welcome.

So I'm right here...

Generally, though I will only impose my views on others in the hope that they will be challenged successfully and superseded and I will learn, and if they won't I have no problem with imposing them. And once again, unpleasant and destructive are subjective... ;P

Watson wrote:
I will hold that you are wrong on the count of my swearing however. I don't enjoy it, the contrary, it is poor expression in my opinion, only emphasis in some extreme cases.


but wrong here...but earlier I was right?

I was just thinking of the time a student would be up is all.

Alrighty then... 8.38ish. Tad longer, x)
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Re: is it bad to use the word ****?

Postby neuro on March 12th, 2012, 9:03 am 

Keep_Relentless wrote:
Watson wrote:... May be swearing has a more ingrained meaning of hostilty....

... There isn't nearly such a background to trigger for adrenaline in saying "holy sugar!" but if there had been, no problem.
It's another link. Surrounding every word is the nature (emotional) of the recollections of every known instance of its usage.


I believe here is the point: swearing - and I mean intentionally, willingly and meaningfully swearing - is a way of discharging hostility and anger.

It can become a norma habit in colloquial conversation, in certain groups of people (among friends for example) or social environments (army, school, sports). In these cases the implicit assumption reigns that such swearing does not carry with it any aggressiveness, and possibly not even anger.

Outside of such social environments, the assumption that no hostility or aggressiveness are implied does not apply, and therefore the full emotional power of the expression is implied and perceived, which makes it "out of place", unless one is really willing to break social rules and express aggressiveness in an unusual way.

Thus, I would not judge negatively people who react badly to swearing, if the situation is such that (given the existing interpersonal relations, social situation, conventions and habits) swearing is perceived as a willingly exacerbated expression of anger/hostility.

On the other hand, these observations apply to all aspects of language: the same words and expressions do not carry the same meaning and emotional connotation in all social situations. One must be aware of this in using them. If a doctor used foul-mouthed language to talk about your intestinal habits while visiting you, you would be baffled and possibly feel offended, the same way you would be puzzled if your friend, being angry at you, told you you had better "go and try to have a bowel movement"...
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Re: is it bad to use the word ****?

Postby NORMLme on March 12th, 2012, 9:16 am 

In the end, I believe it is allllllllll perception.
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Re: is it bad to use the word ****?

Postby Lomax on March 12th, 2012, 9:43 am 

Keep_Relentless wrote:
Lomax wrote:I don't think it's ethical to go to a funeral and go "he was a dickhead",

Coming back here for a second, I recall many cases of serial killers, terrorists and others who had their deaths widely anticipated and celebrated. There are many holes when we equate emotion with logic. Such as the "sanctity of life"...

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we should pretend the deceased isn't a dickhead. I just don't think the funeral is the right place to express it; we'd be inciting a lot of fury without ever persuading anyone. And presumably we'd be gatecrashing :P

One of Christopher Hitchens's finest moments was his eulogy on Jerry Falwell:

Christopher Hitchens wrote:People like that should be out in the street. shouting and hollering with a cardboard sign, and selling pencils from a cup


and again:

Christopher Hitchens wrote:If you gave Falwell an enema he could be buried in a matchbox.
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Re: is it bad to use the word ****?

Postby Jordan on March 12th, 2012, 4:20 pm 

Keep_Relentless wrote:Coming back here for a second...~George Carlin

Well I guess everyone now knows the word filters weakness.
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