Is it immoral to deny women medically approved abortion?

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Is it immoral to deny women medically approved abortion?

Postby newyear on December 26th, 2011, 2:44 pm 

CanadysPeak wrote:........... I'll still stand for the mother's right to choose.


Does this mean until the day before a natural birth, or two months, three months, four months ..............??
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Re: Is it immoral to deny women medically approved abortion?

Postby Marshall on December 26th, 2011, 3:37 pm 

The previous thread came to a natural conclusion with Canady's post, but had also shown a tendency to become mindlessly repetitive. So I have locked and retitled, in the hope that we can get a fresh start on the subject.

I will copy Canady's post at the end of prior thread and give Newyear the honor of starting the new one.
viewtopic.php?f=47&t=18367&p=197848#p197848

CanadysPeak wrote:I guess this thread finally convinced me to get off the fence on the question of abortion. Since this is the philosophy side, I'll plead the Niemoller motivation and say that I'm now pro-choice and that I don't give a rat's patootie whether the fetus is human or not. Even if someone were to convince me that a fetus is a preborn human, I'd side with the mother and permit her to make her choice. No matter what. If that's murder, and there's a judgement day, I'm in deep shit. But, I'll still stand for the mother's right to choose.


I highlighted the part that Newyear was specifically asking about.

It raises an interesting side issue. Does anybody know what criteria are used for medical approval?
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Re: Is it immoral to deny women medically approved abortion?

Postby CanadysPeak on December 26th, 2011, 3:54 pm 

newyear wrote:
CanadysPeak wrote:........... I'll still stand for the mother's right to choose.


Does this mean until the day before a natural birth, or two months, three months, four months ..............??


At any time prior to the first breath. Baby's out, airway cleared, gasps, then it's a human being.
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Re: Is it immoral to deny women medically approved abortion?

Postby CanadysPeak on December 26th, 2011, 3:59 pm 

Marshall wrote:The previous thread came to a natural conclusion with Canady's post, but had also shown a tendency to become mindlessly repetitive. So I have locked and retitled, in the hope that we can get a fresh start on the subject.

I will copy Canady's post at the end of prior thread and give Newyear the honor of starting the new one.
http://www.sciencechatforum.com/viewtop ... 48#p197848

CanadysPeak wrote:I guess this thread finally convinced me to get off the fence on the question of abortion. Since this is the philosophy side, I'll plead the Niemoller motivation and say that I'm now pro-choice and that I don't give a rat's patootie whether the fetus is human or not. Even if someone were to convince me that a fetus is a preborn human, I'd side with the mother and permit her to make her choice. No matter what. If that's murder, and there's a judgement day, I'm in deep shit. But, I'll still stand for the mother's right to choose.


I highlighted the part that Newyear was specifically asking about.

It raises an interesting side issue. Does anybody know what criteria are used for medical approval?


I'm almost certain there is a medical definition, something about viability, but newyear's question was not asked that way. I've argued, quite without success, for the consideration of a medical definition or a legal one. Since those requests have been rebuffed, I'm opting for the first breath default, unless, of course, the mothers want to start advocating for the third birthday. I don't think I can go any past that.
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Re: Is it immoral to deny women medically approved abortion?

Postby Marshall on December 26th, 2011, 4:22 pm 

BTW Newyear, since this is a PHILOSOPHY forum, not a medical science forum most of us can't pretend to know a lot about the medical side. Some people here do, others do not. So what I would suggest, to keep it conceptually SIMPLE, is to focus on the first trimester.

So I would narrow it down and ask "Is it immoral to obstruct a woman's access to medically approved abortion in the first trimester.

Where safe contraception, morning-after-pills, and approved first trimester abortion are promptly and readily available to all women, I imagine that abortion later in the cycle would tend to be quite RARE, revolving around exceptional cases where there is some severe defect or danger to the woman's health.

So I would suggest that whether we consider ourselves amateur or professional moralists (I am definitely in the non-expert category!) we should focus on the clearest real-world case that we are all most likely to understand. Is it immoral to obstruct access to approved abortion in first trimester?
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Re: Is it immoral to deny women medically approved abortion?

Postby Marshall on December 26th, 2011, 4:58 pm 

Canady thanks for the clarification of your position and the concise explanation of what brought you there.

I have a similar story, I guess. I also do not believe that empirical science tells us what a PERSON is. That's defined conventionally and legally in our society and has to do with how the rights in the declaration of independence and the constitution are allocated, interpreted, and balanced with other conflicting legitimate interests. I saw that you pointed out something along those lines, that society and social conventions determine what is and what is not a human being. In ordinary English a human being is a person. It's not a science question. For sure.

Some, e.g. Trek, kept insisting that "science shows" that such and such is a human being. That is simply false and has been pointed out often enough as false. Mindless repetition eventually has to be stopped. I hope Trek when he gets back here will not continue to claim that there is a science basis for considering e.g. a zygote cell as a human being.

Anyway my story has some similarity to yours because I didn't have much of an opinion on the reproductive choice issue---was politically somewhat wishywashy about it. But in the past month or so I have begun to see the Deny/Disapprove people as kind of weird and creepy, and potentially as BULLIES.

That is, if I had a daughter and she decided for whatever reason (the guy, life choices, education, career) that it wasn't the right time I would sympathise with her and want full prompt timely access to the best. And I would fiercely resent some phony moralizing bully who tried to obstruct or make her feel bad, or that she was wrong to decide that.

So what has had the biggest effect on me has been reading posts by Newyear, Trekkie, Edy and various others and getting this feeling that THEIR CONCERN ABOUT WHAT MY DAUGHTER DOES WITH HER OWN UTERUS IS WEIRD AND CREEPY. As the previous thread went on I got more and more shocked and even a bit disgusted.

So I have stopped being a fence-sitter, as you say you have. Actually I think you have a daughter or two, if I recall. So you know more immediately what you are talking about. My wife and I just have a son and I can't remember the issue ever coming up except in the case of two of my good friends in college. That was the 50s and it was hard to find a doctor and risky. I was not directly involved but I was scared for them. A long time ago.
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Re: Is it immoral to deny women medically approved abortion?

Postby Forest_Dump on December 26th, 2011, 5:10 pm 

Although I am firmly pro choice, I am not sure it is a good idea to base your conclusions on what are basically bad arguments. I have been staying out of these debates because there is a lot of repetition but also because none of the anti-abortion folk are really offering very solid arguments. It's just a seemingly endless army of straw men sent to just tire me/us out.
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Re: Is it immoral to deny women medically approved abortion?

Postby CanadysPeak on December 26th, 2011, 6:07 pm 

Forest_Dump wrote:Although I am firmly pro choice, I am not sure it is a good idea to base your conclusions on what are basically bad arguments. I have been staying out of these debates because there is a lot of repetition but also because none of the anti-abortion folk are really offering very solid arguments. It's just a seemingly endless army of straw men sent to just tire me/us out.


I don't know if your comment is directly (even partially) toward me, but I want to be clear that I did not reach a conclusion. Since none of the anti-choice folks would offer evidence, or even discuss this logically, I staked out an arbitrary, capricious position.
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Re: Is it immoral to deny women medically approved abortion?

Postby Forest_Dump on December 26th, 2011, 6:29 pm 

I suppose more Marshall. I agree with everything he said, just not his reasons. The seem more like an ad hom response - he is protecting his hypothetical daughter from bullies - which I can understand but it just becomes a biased position. You see I can also understand anti-abortionists in their actions. Frankly, if I thought there were (innocent, helpless, etc.) humans being killed I would like to think I would do everything in my power, legal or not, to protect those lives (whatever women feel about it). The problem is that the anti-abortion crowd just doesn't provide a good argument that abortions do kill people. So until something comes along that convinces me that people are being killed, then I consider it a private choice between a woman and her doctor.
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Re: Is it immoral to deny women medically approved abortion?

Postby Marshall on December 26th, 2011, 6:35 pm 

Forest_Dump wrote:Although I am firmly pro choice, I am not sure it is a good idea to base your conclusions on what are basically bad arguments. I have been staying out of these debates because there is a lot of repetition but also because none of the anti-abortion folk are really offering very solid arguments. It's just a seemingly endless army of straw men sent to just tire me/us out.


Forest! I agree completely with the logical/philosophical point you make. The pro versus anti issue can be handled carefully---personhood can be defined, rights identified, society's interests delimited, the different cases can be sorted out---and one can come to one's conclusions. I also agree that the Anti-choice folks have not done this. They have been giving us an endless load of something else.

But I'm interested in what this can teach us, by getting it out in the open! I mean teach all of us.

About the social basis of human rights.

About the unavoidable involvement of feelings in moral judgment.

About the danger of false feelings, misdirected feelings---a kind of moral goo we call sentimentality. I know I can fall into this, just as others can.

About the importance of trying to understand others' viewpoints and see thru others' eyes. Where a lot of Ethics comes from IMHO.

About how a major religion can decline into distraction over non-essential detail, superstition, book-worship, and lose its vital core value. This is a large part of the lesson this thread has been teaching me personally but perhaps I'm the only one that sees it this way.

Anyway the discussion of Pro vs Anti choice has I think stuff we can learn from. But each person probably learns something different. Not simply or only what I mentioned. And we also learn about each other.
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Re: Is it immoral to deny women medically approved abortion?

Postby edy420 on December 27th, 2011, 2:18 am 

CanadysPeak wrote:
newyear wrote:
CanadysPeak wrote:........... I'll still stand for the mother's right to choose.


Does this mean until the day before a natural birth, or two months, three months, four months ..............??


At any time prior to the first breath. Baby's out, airway cleared, gasps, then it's a human being.


If I punch a 9 month Mother in the tummy and she immediately has a miscarriage, am I guilty of assaulting the Mother or murdering a baby?

Personally I would call that type of assault, murder.

So I guess it is whether or not the Mother wants to call it an unborn baby, or a human part.
Last edited by edy420 on December 27th, 2011, 2:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is it immoral to deny women medically approved abortion?

Postby edy420 on December 27th, 2011, 2:21 am 

It is immoral to deny the right to abortion.

Before we had such a safe alternative, there were worse alternatives.
Long story short, if a woman does not want to be a Mother, she will not become one.
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Re: Is it immoral to deny women medically approved abortion?

Postby newyear on December 27th, 2011, 7:22 am 

Forest_Dump wrote:........ The problem is that the anti-abortion crowd just doesn't provide a good argument that abortions do kill people. So until something comes along that convinces me that people are being killed, then I consider it a private choice between a woman and her doctor.


Does this mean that 'crowds' are responsible for your own thoughts? I am not one hundred percent anti abortion. Under certain circumstances and time limits, women should be free to do whatever they want. I would like to say though, that I am pro life, and that from conception a new life is forming. Unless something unfortunate happens, this life will reach maturity some seventy to a hundred years later, and end its life.

I know of several cases in which women have had an abortion and the psychological damage remains most of their life. Perhaps it is difficult to see, but culture plays a strong hand in how women and men use abortion as a part of social customs. In the west, we use the economy and social disgrace as a reason for abortion, in China it is economy and social priorities, in which the male and his spouse will care for his parents (not the parents of the wife). This means that one male child is required.

Marshall, I would have put the question as: What justifies the ending of a life? Aren't the real reasons why a woman should choose abortion be taken into consideration, and be given help and support in whichever decision is made? And, if abortion is chosen, the support may well be for the duration of their life.
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Re: Is it immoral to deny women medically approved abortion?

Postby Forest_Dump on December 27th, 2011, 8:01 am 

newyear wrote:Does this mean that 'crowds' are responsible for your own thoughts?


I think if you take a closer look at the whole post, which isn't very long for one of mine, you will see that actually I was trying to focus on the opposite.

newyear wrote:I am not one hundred percent anti abortion. Under certain circumstances and time limits, women should be free to do whatever they want. I would like to say though, that I am pro life, and that from conception a new life is forming.


And as you yourself add further below, this leaves the question of when and why then is there a change in the status of the fetus. Hypothetically, lets use the example of a woman who was violently raped, perhaps left in a coma, etc., and became pregnant as a result of the rape. For some (but note, not me), from what I can glean, while there is a human present right from conception but the "sins of the father" outweigh the assumed rights of the fetus and can be aborted. But at some point, presumably before 3 years of age (an age entirely arbitrarily selected for this), that individual acquires enough rights of their own that s/he is allowed to live. Where and why is there a tipping point in favour of the fetus for those who are only partly in favour of abortion?

newyear wrote:I know of several cases in which women have had an abortion and the psychological damage remains most of their life. Perhaps it is difficult to see, but culture plays a strong hand in how women and men use abortion as a part of social customs.


Indeed. I would argue that the "psychological damage" is entirely cultural (or specifically ideological) and not a necessary biological result and so is caused by the beliefs the woman was raised with and/or the beliefs of others around. So you can't really blame the procedure, you have to blame the people, media, etc., around her.
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Re: Is it immoral to deny women medically approved abortion?

Postby CanadysPeak on December 27th, 2011, 8:45 am 

As long as we're doing anecdotal evidence, I know several women who had abortions and were forever grateful they had. I know several others who didn't have abortions and suffered severe psychological damage by being trapped in a marriage with a lousy husband.
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Re: Is it immoral to deny women medically approved abortion?

Postby newyear on December 27th, 2011, 10:57 am 

CanadysPeak wrote:As long as we're doing anecdotal evidence, I know several women who had abortions and were forever grateful they had. .


Yeah, and I suppose some get a kick out of it.

CanadysPeak wrote:I know several others who didn't have abortions and suffered severe psychological damage by being trapped in a marriage with a lousy husband.


I thought, at least on this side of the planet, this is now a thing of the past. It is easier to get a divorce than an abortion.
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Re: Is it immoral to deny women medically approved abortion?

Postby newyear on December 27th, 2011, 11:22 am 

Forest_Dump wrote:
newyear wrote:I am not one hundred percent anti abortion. Under certain circumstances and time limits, women should be free to do whatever they want. I would like to say though, that I am pro life, and that from conception a new life is forming.


And as you yourself add further below, this leaves the question of when and why then is there a change in the status of the fetus.


Forest, I do not see any change in the fetus. Personally, I would prefer that the mother wouldn't have an abortion. However, I do think that women should be given the freedom to decide for themselves if they want to end the beginning of a new life. If this decision cannot be made quickly then there may be a reason for not wanting an abortion. Doesn't putting a time limit seem reasonable to you?
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Re: Is it immoral to deny women medically approved abortion?

Postby Forest_Dump on December 27th, 2011, 11:53 am 

newyear wrote:Personally, I would prefer that the mother wouldn't have an abortion. However, I do think that women should be given the freedom to decide for themselves if they want to end the beginning of a new life. If this decision cannot be made quickly then there may be a reason for not wanting an abortion. Doesn't putting a time limit seem reasonable to you?


Pardon me but this sounds a bit equivocal when it comes to what appears to be a sharp dichotomy in people's views. As I put it before, if I thought there were innocent people being killed (but note I don't believe this), then I would be strongly against abortion. I don't think there should be choice or convenience, etc., when it comes to murder. But then I consider the transition to becoming a human being, as opposed to just human tissue, to be while or after distinctly human cognition appears which is too late to count as abortion. So, to allow a considerable comfort margin, my own preferences are that if the fetus can be safely and easily removed as a premie and survive on its own so as to be adopted, that might be preferable for purely political and emotional reasons but that is about as much compromise as I can see being necessary. But if you or anyone believes the fetus is a human being, as opposed to just human tissue, then I am curious about under what conditions you can justify killing that human being.
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Re: Is it immoral to deny women medically approved abortion?

Postby newyear on December 27th, 2011, 12:30 pm 

Forest, I do not refer to the fetus as a human being, but as the beginning of a life. I think that life should be respected, and have a right to live. That being said, I would give the mother a short period to decide about an abortion. It is not an all or nothing point of view, but one in which life should have a better chance.
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Re: Is it immoral to deny women medically approved abortion?

Postby NORMLme on December 27th, 2011, 4:31 pm 

edy420 wrote:It is immoral to deny the right to abortion.

Before we had such a safe alternative, there were worse alternatives.
Long story short, if a woman does not want to be a Mother, she will not become one.


I love the way you say if she doesn't want to be, then she won't. Think of all the mothers you know that have kids...should they really be having kids in the first place? (i obviously speak on behalf of all the girls I've seen pregnant) Most people haven't even learned HOW to THINK -- let alone for themselves, and hell, let alone for a child!

As for the question presented, no, I do not believe it is immoral. If we're talking about the women in question, what does the fetus (alone) have to do with the argument? That sounds to me like the pro-lifers trying to think of any way they can to make a decent rebuttal.
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Re: Is it immoral to deny women medically approved abortion?

Postby Marshall on December 27th, 2011, 4:59 pm 

NORMLme wrote:
edy420 wrote:It is immoral to deny the right to abortion.

Before we had such a safe alternative, there were worse alternatives.
Long story short, if a woman does not want to be a Mother, she will not become one.


I love the way you say if she doesn't want to be, then she won't. Think of all the mothers you know that have kids...should they really be having kids in the first place? ...


I agree with what Edy said here and though he put it well. I didn't completely understand your post. Personally I think teenage girls should be rewarded somehow for avoiding getting pregnant thru simple carelessness. Society has an interest in their getting an education and a bit more maturity before---so more likely to get into a stable marriage for the kid to grow up in. But I don't know much about it. So maybe I would agree with some of the attitude you express about kids not being read.

What I meant by "immoral to deny" was do you think it is immoral to OBSTRUCT or make it hard for a woman to get a safe medically approved abortion (say in the first three months) if that is what she decides she wants.

That is, make laws against openly offering timely accessible medically approved abortion. For example.
Would a politician be doing something immoral if that politician made up obstructive laws, or voted for that kind of law? Would it be immoral to vote to elect a politician who makes that kind of obstructive law a part of their platform? That kind of question was what I had in mind.
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Re: Is it immoral to deny women medically approved abortion?

Postby Fuqin on December 27th, 2011, 5:47 pm 

Hell I’m sure I could have saved lives by not existing and some by partaking, but who will know?
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Re: Is it immoral to deny women medically approved abortion?

Postby NORMLme on December 27th, 2011, 6:13 pm 

Oh, well, of course I would agree with your statement about teenage girls being rewarded for not getting pregnant. I feel I have rewarded myself because I was smart and lucky enough to not get pregnant before I understood that I know nothing. Let me try to clarify even further what I said. These teenage mothers (really, mothers of all ages) that do get pregnant, usually -- I would say -- don't fully grasp how much of yourself you have to give to be what would be considered a great mom. So pretty much, if you can't take care of yourself, why would you make the selfish decision to put another life in such jeopardy.

And yes, I do believe it is immoral to obstruct a woman from doing so no matter how far along she is.
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Re: Is it immoral to deny women medically approved abortion?

Postby Marshall on December 27th, 2011, 8:32 pm 

NORMLme wrote:... -- don't fully grasp how much of yourself you have to give to be what would be considered a great mom. So pretty much, if you can't take care of yourself, why would you make the selfish decision to put another life in such jeopardy.

And yes, I do believe it is immoral to obstruct a woman from doing so no matter how far along she is.


Bingo. Tough-minded caring lady. Thanks for putting it so we can all understand.
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Re: Is it immoral to deny women medically approved abortion?

Postby NORMLme on December 27th, 2011, 8:39 pm 

You're very welcome! It tooke me a while to get where I am today. Mentally speaking :)) Looking forward to reading all these ideas on this new site of mine!!
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Re: Is it immoral to deny women medically approved abortion?

Postby mtbturtle on December 27th, 2011, 8:45 pm 

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Re: Is it immoral to deny women medically approved abortion?

Postby CanadysPeak on December 27th, 2011, 8:55 pm 

So, 46 % of abortions were when the woman had not use a contraceptive that month? Say, I have an idea - let's make contraception available to all women, beginning at puberty. That includes Plan B morning after pills. That's got to be cheaper, safer, less upsetting for the Catholics, a boon for the drugstores, and a shot in the arm for the economy (teenage mothers are rarely able to be productive members of society). The best part is that we already have a grassroots, NGO advocacy system in place, so let's hear a big conservative "Yea!" for Planned Parenthood, the new darling of the right.
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Re: Is it immoral to deny women medically approved abortion?

Postby NORMLme on December 27th, 2011, 8:58 pm 

CanadysPeak wrote:So, 46 % of abortions were when the woman had not use a contraceptive that month? Say, I have an idea - let's make contraception available to all women, beginning at puberty. That includes Plan B morning after pills. That's got to be cheaper, safer, less upsetting for the Catholics, a boon for the drugstores, and a shot in the arm for the economy (teenage mothers are rarely able to be productive members of society). The best part is that we already have a grassroots, NGO advocacy system in place, so let's hear a big conservative "Yea!" for Planned Parenthood, the new darling of the right.


If I'm not mistaken, women in the US starting next year some time are going to be able to recieve free birth control...don't quote me :S
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Re: Is it immoral to deny women medically approved abortion?

Postby mtbturtle on December 27th, 2011, 9:25 pm 

CanadysPeak,

naw that might make too much sense.

Catholic Church doesn't even like condoms and masturbation - you know all that wasted potentiality and interfering with God's will...but then an awful lot of Catholics practice birth control, including having abortions so who knows. :)

But you know even with all of our best efforts we still wouldn't be reducing the number of late term abortions. That 1.5% after 21 weeks is ALWAYS medically approved in the US.

In the US there is simply no such thing as ELECTIVE late term abortion and even if there were no legal restrictions on it - there still wouldn't be any due to medical guidelines.

I was listening to a story on the radio while we were driving over the holidays about changes to medical guidelines for elective c-sections/inducing labor prior to 39 weeks. They were wanting to make the practice more restrictive as the delivered babies experienced more medical problems prior to 39 weeks.
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Re: Is it immoral to deny women medically approved abortion?

Postby CanadysPeak on December 27th, 2011, 10:21 pm 

NORMLme wrote:
CanadysPeak wrote:So, 46 % of abortions were when the woman had not use a contraceptive that month? Say, I have an idea - let's make contraception available to all women, beginning at puberty. That includes Plan B morning after pills. That's got to be cheaper, safer, less upsetting for the Catholics, a boon for the drugstores, and a shot in the arm for the economy (teenage mothers are rarely able to be productive members of society). The best part is that we already have a grassroots, NGO advocacy system in place, so let's hear a big conservative "Yea!" for Planned Parenthood, the new darling of the right.


If I'm not mistaken, women in the US starting next year some time are going to be able to recieve free birth control...don't quote me :S


Ah, if only. Private health insurance will provide contraceptives without a copay in 2012. Private health insurance is hardly free or even available to many. Medicaid covers birth control. Medicaid did require a copay on prescriptions, but I'm not current on that. Abortion is often discouraged by Medicaid/Medicare (see Hyde Amendment). But, a little bit helps. I wasn't carping about the cost, but about availability. Unless the situation has changed (I'm a man, too old to get anyone pregnant, and too ignorant to keep up with these things), many rural areas are not served by drugstores that will sell, for example, the morning-after pill. Further, many areas do not permit sex ed teachers to advocate contraception.
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