Execution and Abortion

Discussions that deal with moral issues. Key questions in ethics include: How should one live? What is right (or wrong) to do? What is the best way for humans to live?

Re: Execution and Abortion

Postby Forest_Dump on December 11th, 2011, 8:28 pm 

mtbturtle wrote:Letting each other decide for ourselves seems like a compromise to me.


While as you know I am all for pro-choice and I haven't seen anything that would tempt me to change my mind, I do have to admit there is another side to it. Whether based on religion or not, there are people who do think abortion is murder. Would we or should we ever leave it up to individual choice or the choice of a gender, etc., to decide whether or not to commit murder? Of course, I would be a lot more sympathetic if the same people who argue against abortion were as sympathetic for the plight of living people. I can't forget these are the same people who often say that it is okay for the poor to die of starvation or lack of affordable medical treatments. Or want cutbacks to education, wages, benefits, pensions, etc.
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Re: Execution and Abortion

Postby CanadysPeak on December 11th, 2011, 10:23 pm 

Forest_Dump wrote:
mtbturtle wrote:Letting each other decide for ourselves seems like a compromise to me.


While as you know I am all for pro-choice and I haven't seen anything that would tempt me to change my mind, I do have to admit there is another side to it. Whether based on religion or not, there are people who do think abortion is murder. Would we or should we ever leave it up to individual choice or the choice of a gender, etc., to decide whether or not to commit murder? Of course, I would be a lot more sympathetic if the same people who argue against abortion were as sympathetic for the plight of living people. I can't forget these are the same people who often say that it is okay for the poor to die of starvation or lack of affordable medical treatments. Or want cutbacks to education, wages, benefits, pensions, etc.


Ah, but feeding a child or letting a man die doesn't really have anything to do with controlling women's vaginas, does it? I think that the number one reason for opposing abortion. After all, if one really wanted to stop abortions, it's only a matter of contraceptives. But that allows women the freedom to be sexual without any dire consequences. If women had babies from their foreheads, like Zeus, nobody'd give a fig what they did.
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Re: Execution and Abortion

Postby ronjanec on December 11th, 2011, 10:37 pm 

Mtbturtle,

Never discuss abortion, politics, or religion outside the forum; Never ever discuss abortion on the forum unless you are pro abortion; Going against my own advice, and trying not to "chicken out" here;

Abortion is in my opinion, by far the most divisive issue in this country in the last 40 years. I believe it is even more divisive than the slavery issue, which of course was one of the major reasons for the Civil War. We are a nation divided primarily in a large part because of this one issue. A nation divided cannot get much accomplished, and that is one of the major reasons our country is in such a terrible mess.

The minute the MSM learns a political candidate is anti abortion, it is all out war against this particular candidate, no matter how qualified he or she is. This causes an extremist reaction from the anti abortion side, and all everyone does then is fight like cats and dogs, and nothing of any consequence can get accomplished in Washington, even when the country is in terrible trouble.

If it wasn't for the fighting, and the literal hatred on both sides of this particular issue, both sides of the media would be more fair in their reporting about the different issues, and maybe we could all work together to get something accomplished like we did 70 or 80 years ago in this country.

All this hatred and fighting because of a birth control method? It's incredible! It's no wonder our country is going to hell in a hand basket! How can we accomplish anything when both sides hate each other!

I mentioned the possibility of compromise on this extremely divisive issue to try to stop this madness mtbturtle; The alternative is to just keep fighting about it to the bitter end, and watch our once great nation fall apart, just like it is doing. Yes, it is possible that no compromise will work, but can't we all at least talk about this?
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Re: Execution and Abortion

Postby mtbturtle on December 12th, 2011, 9:46 am 

Forest_Dump wrote:
mtbturtle wrote:Letting each other decide for ourselves seems like a compromise to me.


While as you know I am all for pro-choice and I haven't seen anything that would tempt me to change my mind, I do have to admit there is another side to it. Whether based on religion or not, there are people who do think abortion is murder. Would we or should we ever leave it up to individual choice or the choice of a gender, etc., to decide whether or not to commit murder? Of course, I would be a lot more sympathetic if the same people who argue against abortion were as sympathetic for the plight of living people. I can't forget these are the same people who often say that it is okay for the poor to die of starvation or lack of affordable medical treatments. Or want cutbacks to education, wages, benefits, pensions, etc.


Forest, I am aware of other sides, but ronjanec was asking for some kind of compromise between us, some point at which we could agree even while we disagree about other things.

As for leaving it up to individuals to decide whether to commit an act that is exactly what we do and all we can do. We aren't able to make their decisions for them. We can't act for them. What we do and what I suspect you were getting at is more along the lines of don't we need to decide what is/isn't murder and what we'll do about it if an individuals does it - basically establish what the law is. In order to do that I don't see how we escape the political process and trying to persuade people.
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Re: Execution and Abortion

Postby mtbturtle on December 12th, 2011, 10:27 am 

CanadysPeak wrote:
Forest_Dump wrote:
mtbturtle wrote:Letting each other decide for ourselves seems like a compromise to me.


While as you know I am all for pro-choice and I haven't seen anything that would tempt me to change my mind, I do have to admit there is another side to it. Whether based on religion or not, there are people who do think abortion is murder. Would we or should we ever leave it up to individual choice or the choice of a gender, etc., to decide whether or not to commit murder? Of course, I would be a lot more sympathetic if the same people who argue against abortion were as sympathetic for the plight of living people. I can't forget these are the same people who often say that it is okay for the poor to die of starvation or lack of affordable medical treatments. Or want cutbacks to education, wages, benefits, pensions, etc.


Ah, but feeding a child or letting a man die doesn't really have anything to do with controlling women's vaginas, does it? I think that the number one reason for opposing abortion. After all, if one really wanted to stop abortions, it's only a matter of contraceptives. But that allows women the freedom to be sexual without any dire consequences. If women had babies from their foreheads, like Zeus, nobody'd give a fig what they did.


eh they would just come up with something else to use to control my body.

I think you are right though that what really motivate most is not concern over the well being of children or defense of life, etc.

I really can't wait for oral contraceptives for men (birth control pills for men) are approved and available in the US.
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Re: Execution and Abortion

Postby ronjanec on December 12th, 2011, 1:13 pm 

Mtbturtle and Forest,

I am sitting here scratching my head in trying to figure out the "hypocrisy" between someone being against abortion, and at the same time pro death penalty? On the one hand, we are again talking about someone being possibly for the taking of the life of a guilty convicted murderer versus the same person being against the taking of the life of an innocent unborn fetus?

The same type of people are also possibly "hypocrites" who do not seem to really care about the poor and orphans? The Roman Catholic Church, and many other church organizations who are against abortion run or support orphanages, do the same in soup kitchens for the poor, sends tons of money overseas to help the same type of people, run and support shelters for unwed mothers, visit people in prisons and help the sick and elderly, etc.

The pro abortion organizations on the other hand does.........???
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Re: Execution and Abortion

Postby mtbturtle on December 12th, 2011, 4:25 pm 

ronjanec,

If I recall correctly Trekkie had made a statement along the lines that he opposed killing humans. I have not run into many anti-choicers that hold that position strictly. Most will make exceptions for when killing a person is justifiable such as in the case of the death penalty, withdrawing life support, medical treatment, war, self-defense and on and on. But yeah in general I oppose killing people also but as you know I don't consider the fertilized egg to be a person soooooooooooo around we go.

As for what the pro-choicers do - everything you mentioned. In addition they have educated millions and provide health and family planning services to millions, as well as having to spend an inordinate amount of time, money and resources holding off political opponents who object to condoms and all that nasty nasty stuff. (Like the Catholic Church who would take away my birth control pills.) Despite such efforts and the good deeds of Churches you mentioned, it is still not enough.
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Re: Execution and Abortion

Postby ronjanec on December 12th, 2011, 9:14 pm 

Mtbturtle,

I hope you can understand that I honestly have no interest in telling you or anyone else what to do, or how they should live their lives; If you want to drink, smoke, use drugs, never go to church, that is your business, and none of my business; This abortion thing is a different issue, and it puts people like me in a very uncomfortable position because we are almost "handcuffed" in our beliefs about what we have to say and do about this versus all the other things I just mentioned.

They is no need for us to "go around and around" about this because I understand your beliefs, I respect your opinion about this, and I am pretty sure that neither one of us will be changing our minds about this in the near or far future.

As an adminstrator of the Forum, I am pretty sure that you still want me to be honest about my beliefs here, despite the fact that you certainly do not agree with them, and I hope that you will not hold this against me in the future because we disagree on this one highly sensitive issue.
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Re: Execution and Abortion

Postby mtbturtle on December 13th, 2011, 10:41 pm 

4000 Years for Choice

Graphic art posters by Heather Ault teaching the history of the contraceptives, abortifacient and efforts to control reproduction. 4000 years "develops visual narratives about the practices of contraception and abortion from around the world for the past 4000 years."
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Re: Execution and Abortion

Postby Teacher on December 17th, 2011, 1:44 pm 

Abortion is murder and all abortionists shall be led to live in places where they shall perish
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Re: Execution and Abortion

Postby mtbturtle on December 17th, 2011, 2:30 pm 

Teacher wrote:Abortion is murder and all abortionists shall be led to live in places where they shall perish


Do you view infertility doctors similarly?
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Re: Execution and Abortion

Postby edy420 on December 19th, 2011, 4:51 am 

Hi Teacher, welcome to the forums :)

Teacher wrote:Abortion is murder and all abortionists shall be led to live in places where they shall perish


1. You won't find a government willing to send people off to a remote island named abortionland.
2. Leading people to perish, is murder.

I'm going to take a wild guess and assume your making a religious based statement.
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