Undesigned coincidences in the Gospels

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Undesigned coincidences in the Gospels

Postby Ichthus on September 3rd, 2011, 2:25 pm 

I first heard about these from Professor Tim McGrew.

Here are a few examples:

(Note: numbers are being skipped on purpose because I am sticking to 'internal' coincidences amongst the Gospels.)

#1: Matthew 26:67-68 Why ask him to tell them who slapped him? Luke 22 They blindfolded him.

#2: Mark 6:31 Why are many coming and going? John 6:4 The Passover pilgrimage.

#3: Matthew 8:14-16 Why in the evening? Mark 1:21 Sabbath over at evening (cannot bear burden).

#4: Luke 9:36 Why did they keep silent? Mark 9:9 Jesus told them to tell no one (most consistently disobeyed command, lol).

#5: John 6:5 Why pick Philip? Luke 9 The setting of the miracle is Bethsaida, Philip’s “hometown” (John 1:44).

#7: John 21:15 Why ask “…more than these?” Matthew 26:33 “Though they all fall away…I will never fall away.” In John 21 Peter is done boasting and just says “Lord, you know that I love you.” Beautiful!

#8: Luke 23:1-4 Why Pilate find no guilt in Jesus? John 18:28- “My kingdom is not of this world.”
Also, John never mentions the charge against him, but Luke fills in the detail.

#10: Matthew 14:1-2 Why is Herod speaking about this to his servants? Luke 8:3 Joanna, the wife of Chuza, Herod’s household manager/steward. Herod knows that if he’s got questions about Jesus, talk to his Christian servants. Acts 13:1 Manaen had been brought up with Herod the Tetrarch.

#11: Mark 14:57-58 Mark 15 People mock him for saying he would destroy the temple. He never says that in Mark. John 2:18-19 Jesus says, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”

These are just examples of ‘internal’ undesigned coincidences in the Gospels.

For other types and examples, and more sources for further research, there is a relevant thread on my blog :)

What do you think? :)
Ichthus
 


Re: Undesigned coincidences in the Gospels

Postby Lomax on September 3rd, 2011, 3:08 pm 

Hello Ichthus,

Can you explain how you know they are undesigned, please?

Lomax
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Re: Undesigned coincidences in the Gospels

Postby Ichthus on September 4th, 2011, 9:32 am 

Hi Lomax,

They fill in eachother's randomly missing details. You imply they got together, anticipated biblical criticism and decided to purposefully leave out details and let one of the other three fill them back in? Why didn't the Gnostic gospel authors do that?
Ichthus
 


Re: Undesigned coincidences in the Gospels

Postby Forest_Dump on September 4th, 2011, 11:07 am 

Sorry but isn't this like noting that different Victorian novelists give different and complimentary details about Victorian life, culture and values? Similarly, you could argue that Tom Clancy and Robert Ludnum fill in complimentary details about the CIA. But both still were writing fiction.
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Re: Undesigned coincidences in the Gospels

Postby CanadysPeak on September 4th, 2011, 1:04 pm 

In essence, one guy wrote Matthew, Mark, and Luke. John is completely different, with a radically different theological bent. This is not much different from the novelty songs of the fiftys where snippets of songs answered other songs.
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Re: Undesigned coincidences in the Gospels

Postby Ichthus on September 4th, 2011, 3:38 pm 

Forest and CanadysPeak--

Study the examples for intellectual honesty's sake. Imagine "you" are one of the authors, conspiring with one of the other authors--or, perhaps, with yourself (CanadysPeak)--imagine what it would take to set this up. Imagine the conversation (or thought-process) you would have to have in order to arrange for certain details to be left out in one passage, but filled in in another. And this is before the Victorian era, before the novel (Forest). Before biblical criticism. Ask yourself--do the examples 'sound' like the authors are "answering eachother" (that was a joke, right?)?

Besides that, there are other 'unintended coincidences' between the Gospels (and other parts of the bible) and external sources (like Josephus). See my blog for those examples. Are those a conspiracy as well?

I wouldn't say John is 'radically' different. I 'would' say each Gospel is different in its own way. The examples of interlocking details show that they are all telling a different part of the same story. Again, sit down with the examples.
Ichthus
 


Re: Undesigned coincidences in the Gospels

Postby Forest_Dump on September 4th, 2011, 4:06 pm 

Ichthus wrote:And this is before the Victorian era, before the novel (Forest). Before biblical criticism.


Since you seem to be implying that the time line is significant, let me try to different example. Suppose an independent eyewitness account for the fall of Troy were to be found (always possible). This document could fill in some details left out by Homer. Would that necessarily mean that the Greek Pantheon is confirmed? Hypothetically it is possible that there was a Jesus person and he did many of the actions he is credited with and was put to death as the gospels state. That doesn't in any way "prove" the theological angles.
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Re: Undesigned coincidences in the Gospels

Postby CanadysPeak on September 4th, 2011, 4:32 pm 

Ichthus wrote:Forest and CanadysPeak--

Study the examples for intellectual honesty's sake. Imagine "you" are one of the authors, conspiring with one of the other authors--or, perhaps, with yourself (CanadysPeak)--imagine what it would take to set this up. Imagine the conversation (or thought-process) you would have to have in order to arrange for certain details to be left out in one passage, but filled in in another. And this is before the Victorian era, before the novel (Forest). Before biblical criticism. Ask yourself--do the examples 'sound' like the authors are "answering eachother" (that was a joke, right?)?

Besides that, there are other 'unintended coincidences' between the Gospels (and other parts of the bible) and external sources (like Josephus). See my blog for those examples. Are those a conspiracy as well?

I wouldn't say John is 'radically' different. I 'would' say each Gospel is different in its own way. The examples of interlocking details show that they are all telling a different part of the same story. Again, sit down with the examples.


Ichthus,

May I assume you are not familiar with the objective history of the Synoptic Gospels? You might read The Authentic Gospel of jesus, Geza Vermes, Penguin Books, 2004. It shows a lot of "back-and-forth" references, all of which fit well with the idea of a single source, Proto-Mark.
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Re: Undesigned coincidences in the Gospels

Postby Ichthus on September 4th, 2011, 4:43 pm 

Forest, I don't think anything can prove a 'theological angle'. This is merely a test for historicity...for it not being fiction. However...I wonder if you have heard of the "Twelve Facts" resurrection logic puzzle? From it you can conclude either Jesus was an alien, or Jesus is God.

Canadys, I am familiar with some of the theory about Q and all that. Everything I am saying 'grants' that as fact, although that isn't to say I go as far as saying the four gospels are not independent gospels. These 'undesigned coincidences' show them to be independent. If they were copying from eachother, or an earlier source, why leave out random details to be randomly filled in by one/more of the other authors (again, before the novel, before biblical criticism)? And what of the details filled in by Josephus (some are listed on my blog)?

Has anyone actually examined each of the examples?
Ichthus
 



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