Do insects feel pain?

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Do insects feel pain?

Postby Huxley on April 13th, 2010, 8:10 pm 

What's the scientific consensus on whether or not insects feel pain?
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Re: Do insects feel pain?

Postby kudayta on April 13th, 2010, 9:33 pm 

Well, their nervous system detects and transmits pain sensations (ie, they've got nociceptors). But it's doubtful that insects feel pain consciously, like you and I do.
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Re: Do insects feel pain?

Postby Tater on April 14th, 2010, 9:09 am 

First of all, I will say I am not an expert, just a senior year biology major at a local university. That being said. . .

I do not believe they do. This semester I am taking a course in Animal behavior, and as part of the course requirement we had to construct an experiment. Due to restrictions on experimenting on vertebrates, we were limited to using insects. The animal welfare officer of the university talked to us about the hoops you have to jump through just work with verts, and how when he worked with endangered pandas in China, he couldn't even touch them.

During our discussions on animal treatment, and experiment which found that ants actually count their steps was discussed. In this experiment, ant leg length was altered either by adding extensions, or cutting the legs of to a shorter length. If they are susceptible to pain, I think there would be restrictions or protocols to follow for working with insects.

I think much of this stems from the that the insect nervous system isn't really constructed like the vert nervous system. Most insects (i think this is right) don't have what you would actually classify as a brain. They have a net of nerves and a few ganglia that enables their actions and behaviors.

I have probably botched some of this explanation, and please, if anyone sees something here that isn't correct, say so. This is all just off the top of my head.

And YAY for my first post. . . .

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Re: Do insects feel pain?

Postby MrMistery on April 14th, 2010, 10:19 am 

well I think you have a problem in logic: just because playing with insects in various ways is allowed doesn't mean they don't feel pain.

Also saying they don't have a brain like we do isn't an indication if they feel pain or not (btw in insects those ganglia actually fuse into a sort of a brain, that it divided between a protocerebron, deutocerebron and tritocerebron.

I think insects definitely must sense some sort of pain, because evolutionarily pain is a sense that says "Get away from here". Too hot, you need to go somewhere else, too cold, also leave or start generating heat. Whether or not insects actually suffer from pain, that's a bit of a philosophical question i suppose
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Re: Do insects feel pain?

Postby Tater on April 14th, 2010, 11:10 am 

allrighty. i will restate what i was trying to say. I didn't mean they don't feel pain. They just don't interpret it like verts do. Plus pain can be a relative term. What causes me "pain" may not cause someone else the same feeling. Much of what we feel as pain is our system interpreting stimuli received from our environment. Insects just interpret things differently.

Do they suffer? I'm with you. probably philosophical. if only we could interview a couple of bugs and find out. :)

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Re: Do insects feel pain?

Postby Huxley on April 14th, 2010, 11:14 pm 

Well, is it the case that the nociceptor responses are more like reflex responses than actual pain?
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Re: Do insects feel pain?

Postby kudayta on April 14th, 2010, 11:33 pm 

What do you mean by "actual pain"? As in, consciously felt and acted upon? No, insects aren't conscious. Do you mean "detecting the presence of harmful and/or deadly stimuli"? Yes, insects feel that.

Even humans have the non-conscious pain detection/response reflex. When you put your hand on a hot stove, your hand will recoil before the signal is sent to the brain. Your spinal cord initiates the recoiling and then routes the pain sensation up to the brain to punish you for your stupidity. Is that "actual pain"?
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Re: Do insects feel pain?

Postby Huxley on April 15th, 2010, 1:05 am 

kudayta wrote:What do you mean by "actual pain"? As in, consciously felt and acted upon? No, insects aren't conscious. Do you mean "detecting the presence of harmful and/or deadly stimuli"? Yes, insects feel that.

Even humans have the non-conscious pain detection/response reflex. When you put your hand on a hot stove, your hand will recoil before the signal is sent to the brain. Your spinal cord initiates the recoiling and then routes the pain sensation up to the brain to punish you for your stupidity. Is that "actual pain"?


I suppose this answers my question. They detect, but don't consciously feel.
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Re: Do insects feel pain?

Postby Marshall on April 15th, 2010, 1:43 am 

Huxley wrote:
I suppose this answers my question. They detect, but don't consciously feel.


OK now that the question has been answered I have an add-on follow-up question maybe you or somebody can answer.

What about fear? What is the limbic system?

I was waiting at the meat counter of a local market and I asked a guy next to me about eating other animals and he said "I don't mind as long as they don't have a limbic system."

Don't all animals, at least all vertebrates? What is made of meat and tastes good and DOESN'T have a limbic system? Was the guy kidding? I think the idea would be that the part of your brain called limbic system is what allows you to anticipate pain and suffer emotionally and that kind of stuff. Maybe insects don't have limbics so they don't experience as much agony as, say, a pig would, or a rabbit.

Paralith would know. She's up on all this animal consciousness stuff.
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Re: Do insects feel pain?

Postby kudayta on April 17th, 2010, 1:58 pm 

Marshall wrote:Don't all animals, at least all vertebrates? What is made of meat and tastes good and DOESN'T have a limbic system? Was the guy kidding?


As far as I know, all vertebrates have a limbic system. Well, fish have a limbic system of sorts. It's not particularly well developed compared to reptiles and mammals. Beyond that, there are plenty of invertebrates that are made of meat, taste good and don't have a limbic system (crabs, clams, mussels, lobsters). I'm not sure if the guy at the meat counter was kidding or if he was just a dumbass.

The limbic system is associated with emotional responses. It's not clear, to my knowledge, if suffering and/or agony happens in all animals with a limbic system though. If someone more knowledgeable (paralith) on the topic wants to contradict me on that, it won't be contested.
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Re: Do insects feel pain?

Postby Natural ChemE on April 18th, 2010, 3:19 am 

No, insects do not feel pain, nor do insects not feel pain.

Ants are too far removed from humans to be subject to a consideration which is defined largely within the human context. We can often extend the definition of pain to human-like systems, such as other mammals, but it's a debate in semantics by the time we get to ants.
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Re: Do insects feel pain?

Postby rooshidavid on April 22nd, 2010, 8:44 am 

Image
Ofcourse the insects do gets pain. They are normal living being like us. They posses a well developed nervous system shown above.
It consists primarily of a 5 brains which are located dorsally in the head, and a nerve 19 cords that runs ventrally through the thorax and abdomen.
Also the brain of the insect is a fusion of three pairs of ganglia, each supplying nerves for specific functions. The first pair is called the protocerebrum which connects to the compound 4eyes and the 2-3 ocellis and controls vision.
The deutocerebrum innervates the 1 antennae. Also the third pair called the tritocerebrum which controls the labrum and also connects the brain to the rest of the nervous system.
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Re: Do insects feel pain?

Postby goingtothedogs on April 29th, 2010, 5:51 pm 

A nasty kind of subject this one - more so because there has got to be a horribly undefined "grey area"

It's not so long ago that white folks justified treatment of black slaves on the grounds that "They don't understand pain/fear like we do"

A similar argument is currently used to justify fox hunting with dogs

OK, we move it down the scale of nervous systems - does a slug feel pain? Or fear (which is related)? Does an octopus (which has many of the legal protections normally reserved for mammals)?

At some level, pain has got to be just a response, but where that level is....

It's worth noting that part of Darwin's (and others of the time) big problem with the God thing was the question of how could an (allegedly) merciful God allow the kind of suffering apparent in the life cycles tying together parasitic wasps and their food/larders/nursery/victim caterpillars.
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Re: Do insects feel pain?

Postby Jebediah on May 9th, 2010, 2:45 am 

Sometimes when you are sleeping, you roll over on your hand with it twisted under you. It sends a "pain" signal to the brain and you roll back. People who have lost the ability to feel pain end up injuring themselves terribly during sleep because they lay on it like that for a few hours.

But I wouldn't say that I'm in pain during the night. I'm not conscious of it, even though I react to it.
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Re: Do insects feel pain?

Postby Namshe on May 24th, 2010, 8:38 pm 

Jebediah wrote: Sometimes when you are sleeping, you roll over on your hand with it twisted under you. It sends a "pain" signal to the brain and you roll back. People who have lost the ability to feel pain end up injuring themselves terribly during sleep because they lay on it like that for a few hours.


Dr. Paul Brand studied a similar phenomenon among leprosy patients in India, whose pain-perception abilities had been ravaged by the disease. Leprosy deadens the nerves that allow us to sense pain, and without the ability to feel pain, sufferers of leprosy whom Dr. Brand observed were going about their daily activities on limbs with broken skin and even exposed bones, unable to detect their own tissue damage and unintentionally furthering the deterioration of their bodies.

Pain is thus a protective biological response mechanism. The reason pain is so unpleasant is because discomfort elicits an aversive reaction. If we are hurt, we will try to cease doing whatever caused the pain we are experiencing.

If pain is defined in this way, I would say that insects do indeed feel pain. They respond to painful sensory stimuli with neural and motor reflexes that are meant to avoid further pain sensations. I believe that insects are sentient beings in this sense, but their level of sentience, or the ability to feel pain and suffer, is very basic. The pain I think they feel is not extensive. The main purpose of the pain they experience is to promote survival. I do not think they experience emotional pain, or any other form of pain distinct to organisms with higher cognitive abilities, such as humans.
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Re: Do insects feel pain?

Postby janep on June 27th, 2010, 4:37 pm 

I don't think we'd ever be able to know 100% if anything feels pain (except for ourselves). So I try not to hurt anything excessively....
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Re: Do insects feel pain?

Postby neuro on June 28th, 2010, 8:23 am 

Maybe the discussion has been too strictly centered on the word "pain" rather than "feel".
In neuroscience, two words are generally used in talking about emotional life: emotion and feeling.
Although this is a schematic "imposition", as it often occurs for scientific jargon, it fulfills the need of knowing what one is talking about.
In this restricted sense, "emotion" refers to the viscerosomatic response to any stimulus that may have a relevance to the survival and/or wellbeing of the individual. On the other hand, "feeling" refers to the more or less conscious perception and affective elaboration of such "biological" reaction.
Whereas the "emotional" response (with all the related visceral, mimical and behavioral components) is cohordinated by subcortical systems (hypothalamus, amygdala, mesencephalic VTA, n. accumbens, partly the hyppocampus) and dedicated cortical areas (mostly the philogenetically older portions of the cortex) which constitute the so-called limbic system, "feeling" requires the involvement of multi-modal cortical areas implied in the generation of a conscious (rational and imaginary) perception of reality, one's own body, one's own interior life.
It is of interest that the relation is not one-way only: conscious perception of oneself and one's own experience is able to elicit responses in the lower circuitries and limbic system which precisely reproduce responses to physical pleasure, well-being, distress and pain. This occurs in response to conceptual elaboration of social, affective, esthetic, intellectual experiences.
The dialog between structures in charge of "emotion" (strict-sense) processing and conscious elaboration of interior experience, which appears to generate "feeling", obviously requires the simultaneous presence of both systems: (1) a system aimed at perceiving stimuli and events relevant to well-being, and producing adequate viscero-somatic responses + (2) a system aimed at integrating such information into a coordinated representation / interpretation of reality and interior experience, capable of originating input to system (1) as well, which shall be processed in the same way as an external (physical) affectively relevant stimulus.
The more developed is system (2), i.e. the more sophisticated is the conscious representation of one's interior life, the more relevant is the "feeling" component generated by biological "emotion".
Insects do have niciceptors, and are able to sense the same sensation we live as pain.
One can call that pain.
But they have no neural systems to elaborate such sensation into a complex internal experience, i.e. to generate a "feeling" out of that.
Thus, they do not FEEL what we call pain in response to activation of their nociceptors.
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Re: Do insects feel pain?

Postby owleye on June 28th, 2010, 12:16 pm 

neuro wrote:Maybe the discussion has been too strictly centered on the word "pain" rather than "feel".
In neuroscience, two words are generally used in talking about emotional life: emotion and feeling.
Although this is a schematic "imposition", as it often occurs for scientific jargon, it fulfills the need of knowing what one is talking about. ...
It is of interest that the relation is not one-way only: conscious perception of oneself and one's own experience is able to elicit responses in the lower circuitries and limbic system which precisely reproduce responses to physical pleasure, well-being, distress and pain. This occurs in response to conceptual elaboration of social, affective, esthetic, intellectual experiences. ...
The more developed is system (2), i.e. the more sophisticated is the conscious representation of one's interior life, the more relevant is the "feeling" component generated by biological "emotion".
...


Interesting analysis. On reading it, I was inclined toward finding something useful in our having the ability to feel pain, compared to say insects which wouldn't be able to have such feeling. I'm not sure I found it in your writing, but I could be mistaken. One could conceivably wire our nervous system in such a way as to bypass that feeling and direct the "responses in the lower circuitries and limbic system which precisely reproduce responses to ...." such as one might do in robotics. Why do you think it became necessary (or advantageous) to wire it in this way? It seems to take a lot of energy to bring about consciousness, possibly for something that it (evolution) need not have done at all.

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Re: Do insects feel pain?

Postby DaMadScientist on June 29th, 2010, 8:05 am 

Well it depends what your definition of pain is. If you try to chop off a bugs leg... The nerves will send a message to there brain saying "This is unpleasant get away"! Now the same goes for a human if i try and chop off your leg you would try to get away. So its the same in the sense that information of something negative is being passed to the brain.

Is the pain sensation the same for humans as it is for insects... no. We don't have anything close to the same brain structure so information is processed in very different ways. Pain for you is not the same as pain for me and we are both human. I for example can take a lot of pain, don't bother me, but some women might cry if you pinch her. The pain for a bug might be worse, less, or interpreted as just information without a sensation. Problem is no real way to know unless your the bug!
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Re: Do insects feel pain?

Postby owleye on June 29th, 2010, 10:46 am 

DaMadScientist wrote:Well it depends what your definition of pain is. If you try to chop off a bugs leg... The nerves will send a message to there brain saying "This is unpleasant get away"! Now the same goes for a human if i try and chop off your leg you would try to get away. So its the same in the sense that information of something negative is being passed to the brain.

Is the pain sensation the same for humans as it is for insects... no. We don't have anything close to the same brain structure so information is processed in very different ways. Pain for you is not the same as pain for me and we are both human. I for example can take a lot of pain, don't bother me, but some women might cry if you pinch her. The pain for a bug might be worse, less, or interpreted as just information without a sensation. Problem is no real way to know unless your the bug!


In my use of the term, I oriented it around the feeling one has of pain. However, I don't think I'm unusual here. Pain and pleasure among behaviorists has often been treated as an internal feeling rather than behavior, and Skinner, for example, adopted a particular stance on it for that reason. My treatment has been that it is a representation of that injury provided to individuals that possess it. Pain poses a difficult challenge for behaviorists since pain is exposed only from the individual's account of it.

I don't think your example is particularly illuminating and would need to be honed, principally because the feeling of pain you invoke needs to be tied more directly to the injury taking place, rather than in any attempt to cause injury. However, I don't think even after doing so, it will make a difference. Presumably there are messages sent to the insect's brain that inform it of it being a certain sort of stimulus, which will lead to activating a particular response behavior. The question is whether anything like this should be interpreted as pain. My understanding of its use requires that it not be considered as pain unless there is a sensation accompanying the injury, which is then identified with it.

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Re: Do insects feel pain?

Postby barbara on February 13th, 2011, 4:04 pm 

Jebediah wrote: Sometimes when you are sleeping, you roll over on your hand with it twisted under you. It sends a "pain" signal to the brain and you roll back. People who have lost the ability to feel pain end up injuring themselves terribly during sleep because they lay on it like that for a few hours.

This does not always happen automatically. The other night I was laying on my arm while sleeping and I was dreaming that my dream incorporating that my arm was in pain and my circulation was getting cut off. It took me what seem like a long time that I was indeed in pain and this part was a dream state. I had to struggle with waking up so I could get my circulation back to my arm.
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Re: Do insects feel pain?

Postby rickymouse on April 9th, 2011, 12:12 pm 

Yeah, and contrary to beliefs daddylonglegs can bite if you start pulling their legs off. It feels like you got your finger hit with a sledgehammer. I've felt both things. Why would anyone question if they hurt, I suppose our ancestors had to tell their kids that bugs don't feel pain so they would kill them to protect health. When you grow up you are supposed to realize the truth on your own. Do you believe in Santa yet?
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Re: Do insects feel pain?

Postby Dryson on April 10th, 2011, 1:23 pm 

What is pain? Pain is an automatic nervous system respons in a living creature, plant or animal that sends a signal to the brain that something is wrong that could threaten the plant or animals life.

So anything that is living does feel pain.
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Re: Do insects feel pain?

Postby neuro on April 11th, 2011, 5:10 pm 

Dryson wrote:What is pain? Pain is an automatic nervous system respons in a living creature...

I would not go back over all this discussion again, but my impression is that one cannot throw extemporaneous definitions around and then draw conclusions from such definitions.

Pain is not "an automatic nervous system response". That is "nociception". Pain is usually defined as a (subjective) unpleasant experience, be it related to stimulation of nociceptive systems or to emotional, psychological, affective events.

In particular, the question "do insect FEEL pain?" becomes nonsensical if it reduces to "do insects have a neuronal system which allows them to sense noxious stimuli"; obviously, the question only makes sense if it is interpreted as "do insect suffer noxious stimulation as an unpleasant experience?"

The lack of a brain argues against the possibility for insects to transform a sensation (activation of a sensory neuronal system) into an experience (complex psychological elaboration), whether the sensation is a visual, auditory, tactile or nociceptive one.

Thus, unless one plays with words, insects are able to react to noxious stimuli but do not FEEL "pain".
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Re: Do insects feel pain?

Postby rickymouse on April 11th, 2011, 5:42 pm 

Just because it's brain is small doesn't mean a bug isn't intelligent. Their brain structure is way more complex than we give them credit for. It takes a lot of brainpower just to fly. Because they don't live long though, their learning time is restricted to a short time. We seem to think that man is the most intelligent creature on the planet. In reality we are not that intelligent as is evident in our trashing our habitat, something a porpoise would never do.
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Re: Do insects feel pain?

Postby neuro on April 11th, 2011, 6:11 pm 

rickymouse,
do you have an idea of what a BRAIN is?

to your knowledge, no animal without a spinal chord has a brain.

insects are far below that threshold.
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Re: Do insects feel pain?

Postby rickymouse on April 11th, 2011, 9:58 pm 

A bumblebee has a very complex form of communication. They go back to the nest and through a complex series of circles and timing give a set of coordinates to where it found food. If that isn't some sort of intelligence than I don't know what it is. Most people can't even give good instructions. I'm not an environmentalist but do like the woods. I hunt, fish, and plant a garden and the outdoors seems more like home than the city.
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Re: Do insects feel pain?

Postby neuro on April 14th, 2011, 3:43 am 

rickymouse wrote:A bumblebee has a very complex form of communication. They go back to the nest and through a complex series of circles and timing give a set of coordinates to where it found food. If that isn't some sort of intelligence than I don't know what it is. Most people can't even give good instructions.

the question is interesting.
However, the following should be considered:
1 - although this behavior constitues a rather complex form of communication, the insects have no brain
2 - insects display one or very few of such complex communicative behavior
3 - insects do not LEARN such communication skill or form
4 - the communication is univocal, unambiguous, rigidly ruled

Point 1 can lead to two conclusions:
a) neuronal network are real powerful, imagine what a brain can do if a few hundred neurons are sufficient to regulate such behaviors!
b) insects possess a soul and use their neurons and body as a means for the soul to communicate

If your option is (b) you probably are not interested in reading further on.

Points 2 and 3 indicate that such behaviors are innated, precabled in neural network, instinctual (choose the definition you prefer).
Actually, they constitute modified performances of motor procedures and are based on mimickry in "transmission", in "reception" and in reproduction.
Moreover, point 3 indicates that there are no general communicative skills.

Point 4 indicates that in this form of communication there is no room for interpretation, i.e. (a) creativity in representing unexpected (not pre-coded) elements and modifying rhythm, organization, modes and details of the "dance" to express a message which is not already coded; and (b) analysis and comparison of multiple possible readings in search for the most consistent meaning, which may not coincide with something already known. This is a substantial aspect in communication, because it constitutes the basis for learning through communication.

This said, one may think that these aspects do not constitute "qualitative" differences between insect and human communication, and therefore conclude that similarly there might not be "qualitative" differences between insect and human perception of a noxious stimulus as an unpleasant experience.

Or, one may consider the qualitative novelty of an organism capable of putting together an abstract representation of reality and itself, of considering physical, emotional, affective, social and ethical aspects of such reality and its own behavior, and therefore of attributing a negative valence to physical or abstract events which interfere with its own well-being (a negative valence perceived as unpleasantness of an experience, with a variable intensity, up to PAIN, and variable relevance).

Notice that humans may not perceive / feel pain, under conditions where their attention / committment is totally concentrated on a specific task, danger, or mental state (although the noxious sensation occurs under such conditions as well and may evoke reflex responses). This suggests that a certain degree of consciousness, attention and involvement is required to FEEL pain.
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Re: Do insects feel pain?

Postby rickymouse on April 14th, 2011, 8:15 am 

Well Neuro, you're saying bees aren't much different than most humans than. Most people worry more about the clothes they wear, the cars they drive, their hair and looks, their huge channel selection, their cell phone + network, and sexual attractiveness than they do about the future of their kind. This sounds less intelligent than a bee. Maybe a bee with disassociative disease?
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Re: Do insects feel pain?

Postby timgier on April 14th, 2012, 1:54 pm 

neuro wrote:the question is interesting.


The answer was more so.
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