Bacteria having a human experience

Discussions on general biology and biological evolution, genetics, zoology, ecology, botany, etc.

What are we? (for fun)

Humans full of bacteria.
2
40%
Bacteria living a human experience.
2
40%
Star dust.
0
No votes
Individuals.
0
No votes
A single collective organism on planet Earth.
1
20%
 
Total votes : 5

Bacteria having a human experience

Postby zetreque on September 3rd, 2017, 2:55 pm 

Are we humans full of bacteria or bacteria living a human experience?

Jeroen Raes at TEDxBrussels
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Re: Bacteria having a human experience

Postby wolfhnd on September 3rd, 2017, 4:43 pm 

Ecosystem

One of the problems is language. What constitutes an individual?
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Re: Bacteria having a human experience

Postby BadgerJelly on September 3rd, 2017, 8:39 pm 

There is a wonderful TEDtalk somewhere about bacteria (We're 10% human and 90% bacteria):

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Re: Bacteria having a human experience

Postby Dave_C on September 4th, 2017, 10:38 am 

I like the video and I see Jeroen has a tremendous background in the topic so I think we can accept what he's saying as being well informed. However, I do think he makes a number of sweeping generalizations that perhaps aren't emphasized as being generalizations. For example, I don't believe that merely taking large amounts of antibiotics as a child will necessarily influence you later in life. That's a broad generalization that may be true sometimes but it's just that, a generalization.

Consider also, there are live bacteria on vegetables and cooked leftovers that consume those types of foods, resulting in molds growing on them eventually. But we consume those bacteria before they do significant damage to the food and some of them must be able to survive the strong acids in the stomach. If so, we are continuously putting new microbes into our gut and we might not expect our gut flora to be static. I've seen some research that suggest we need quite a lot of bacteria to make a significant impact on our guts, fecal transplants being one way to significantly impact the gut flora for example. But over time, I suspect our flora can vary under 'normal' circumstances as well. I mention that because of Jeroen's mention of how our gut flora is 'seeded at birth' and how it has such an impact on the rest of your life (comparison of natural versus C-section births), another generalization.

I think we're seeing a lot of very new science around the microbiome come out in the past decade or so and it'll sort itself out eventually but much of it has to ferment for a few decades before all the inaccuracies can be boiled off... so to speak.

~

I often wonder if our gut microbiome has a strong influence over what foods we desire. If we have bacteria that feed best on refined sugars for example, then might those bacteria produce chemical messengers that make us desire sugary foods? Has any research been done to show that correlation?
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Re: Bacteria having a human experience

Postby zetreque on September 4th, 2017, 12:40 pm 

Dave_C » Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:38 am wrote:For example, I don't believe that merely taking large amounts of antibiotics as a child will necessarily influence you later in life. That's a broad generalization that may be true sometimes but it's just that, a generalization.


http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-0225-sonnenburg-gut-bacteria-extinction-20160225-story.html


I often wonder if our gut microbiome has a strong influence over what foods we desire. If we have bacteria that feed best on refined sugars for example, then might those bacteria produce chemical messengers that make us desire sugary foods? Has any research been done to show that correlation?


Yes. I have listened to dozens of interviews with doctors talking about this topic and many have talked about that concept about bacteria aiding in sending signals from the gut and from the brain.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4228144/
Gut Microbes and the Brain: Paradigm Shift in Neuroscience

https://www.forbes.com/sites/daviddisalvo/2017/08/27/science-is-showing-how-gut-bacteria-affect-the-brain-but-dont-bother-taking-probiotics-yet/#4dc373ac35a5
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Re: Bacteria having a human experience

Postby zetreque on September 4th, 2017, 12:48 pm 

Consider also, there are live bacteria on vegetables and cooked leftovers that consume those types of foods, resulting in molds growing on them eventually. But we consume those bacteria before they do significant damage to the food and some of them must be able to survive the strong acids in the stomach. If so, we are continuously putting new microbes into our gut and we might not expect our gut flora to be static. I've seen some research that suggest we need quite a lot of bacteria to make a significant impact on our guts


But consider that there are a lot of bacteria that maybe can't survive the stomach acid being too sensitive and they are contributors to a healthy microbiome.


I mention that because of Jeroen's mention of how our gut flora is 'seeded at birth' and how it has such an impact on the rest of your life (comparison of natural versus C-section births), another generalization.


I don't know. After hearing about this years ago I have observed it to be true from personal experience. I haven't looked into the research but feel confident in the statement off of what I have experienced.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2075768-boost-c-section-babies-by-giving-them-vaginal-bacteria/


I do understand your concern for generalization though without overwhelming evidence.
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Re: Bacteria having a human experience

Postby zetreque on September 4th, 2017, 1:38 pm 

This was an interesting one.

Is There a Link Between Bacteria and Breast Cancer?
By Sara G. Miller, Staff Writer | June 28, 2016
https://www.livescience.com/55221-microbiome-breast-cancer.html
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Re: Bacteria having a human experience

Postby Braininvat on September 4th, 2017, 2:39 pm 

I think a children's book could be adapted from Jeroen's lecture, to help them make good probiotic choices as they grow up. I'm thinking "Winnie the Poo Flora."
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Re: Bacteria having a human experience

Postby zetreque on September 4th, 2017, 2:49 pm 

Braininvat » Mon Sep 04, 2017 10:39 am wrote:I think a children's book could be adapted from Jeroen's lecture, to help them make good probiotic choices as they grow up. I'm thinking "Winnie the Poo Flora."


Japan has you beat with a whole museum dedicated to poo.
http://www.viralnova.com/japanese-poop-museum/

"Toilet!? Human Waste & Earth's Future"

Joking aside, it's actually an important concept since it's sanitation of this sorts that increased lifespan in dense populations. But now it's verging off topic.
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Re: Bacteria having a human experience

Postby Braininvat on September 4th, 2017, 5:59 pm 

Yep, I've heard the Hinduism is a health crisis in India, where it's a sacred thing to bathe in, and drink from, the Ganges, which is full of fecal residue.

Well, my response to the OP was "individuals," because I think that's the emergent functional level that really gets at who we are. Certain qualities of personality and certain life experiences made Teddy Roosevelt or Mother Theresa or Werner Heisenberg who they were, not their poo flora. I agree with DaveC that Jeroen might be giving a little much emphasis to the role of bacterial colonies (and I can understand that, given that in the past we may have too much ignored the role of such bacteria).

I may have mentioned in another thread that I never took antiobiotics and tended to not wash my hands and often eat stuff that had fallen on the ground, while growing up. It may or may not be a factor in my GI health being really good, and having a good immune system. I have, literally, not vomited for 25 years. But that stuff is anecdote, and not worth....


That museum is so Japanese. This is a nation that has a popular game show where people see how long they can sniff someone's a--hole.
So no surprise there.
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Re: Bacteria having a human experience

Postby zetreque on September 4th, 2017, 6:37 pm 

I have taken antibiotics once in my life and without getting too personal it was a major mistake by a doctor that over prescribes and was followed by several major health problems I had. I will never take them again unless I have an unforeseen extreme situation where they might be worth trying.

If there is a brain gut connection through bacteria however minute it does influence who we are. The bacteria themselves might not be consciously controlling us but if there is a factor in them giving us cravings that bypass our free will then it shapes what we spend our time doing in life. If we are able to focus on achievements or not. The difference in writing that award winning acceptance letter or failing and working at the local Starbucks for another year.
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Re: Bacteria having a human experience

Postby wolfhnd on September 5th, 2017, 2:26 am 

Had pneumonia, so kinda needed antibiotics. While it is true they mess up you gastrointestinal tract it is easy to solve with probiotics. I have been unusually healthy most of my life but as you age you will find you may need to help your immune system out occasionally.
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Re: Bacteria having a human experience

Postby zetreque on September 5th, 2017, 11:20 pm 

In the first 5 minutes of this video, Dr. Gundry makes a statement that Human and Chimp DNA are very alike but one thing that changed to make us more uniquely human was the bacteria. That we can identify the point in time when our bacteria changed. If anyone finds the research about that please post.

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Re: Bacteria having a human experience

Postby Watson on September 6th, 2017, 1:17 am 

I didn't plan to watch the whole thing but it was interesting, and then it was over. Olive oil?? Go figure, but no peanut butter?
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Re: Bacteria having a human experience

Postby zetreque on September 6th, 2017, 1:27 am 

Gundry has some bad wording when he talks about certain concepts and contradicts a lot of the other functional medicine doctors.

Fresh olive oil is incredibly hard to get so it's not going to do you any good if you are eating the rancid stuff you buy in stores or cooking with it.
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Re: Bacteria having a human experience

Postby Braininvat on September 6th, 2017, 9:23 am 

Gundry's ideas get considerable skepticism from many nutritional science people. His slamming of lectins is really over the top. Most humans have adapted to the lectins in plants and can eat whole grains and legumes without digestive problems. (I couldnt watch video here, but here's a summary of his ideas...

http://gundrymd.com/food-pyramid/

....)

Peanuts are a source of many good nutrients, and most people can digest them. If you're among the small percentage that can't, you are probably already real aware of that. Indigestion is not a secret process that is hidden from your consciousness.

Olive oil does go rancid pretty fast. I've been told, by a culinary expert, that it is best to buy from a place that specializes in cooking stuff like spices and oils, and refrigerate it immediately when you get home.

I have no idea why canola oil is on his hit list. If there is ANY sound science to support that, I would be very interested to hear it.
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Re: Bacteria having a human experience

Postby zetreque on September 6th, 2017, 11:43 am 

"Indigestion is not a secret process that is hidden from your consciousness.'

Completely wrong. I've been through hell and back investigating/endoscopy my microvilli and all and can tell you that it can be hidden and the best way to find out things is an IGG test and a panel of all the protein's in wheat. Not just gliadin.

And most nutritional science people are flat out living in the dark ages of medicine. Might as well not believe in evolution to listen to a lot of them.
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Re: Bacteria having a human experience

Postby Braininvat on September 6th, 2017, 12:23 pm 

I meant the symptoms of indigestion don't go unnoticed by the sufferer. I wasn't saying you shouldn't get allergy panels and poo tests and endoscopic exams and all that. Only that, if you have a food intolerance like peanuts, you will notice it.

So, a misunderstanding, I think, due to my poor wording. There are, yes, certainly digestive problems that are asymptomatic in the gut and can result in fatigue, cramps, and all sorts of other effects outside the gut, which often require testing like endoscopies, fecal sampling, and so on.

I do remain a believer in the safeness of most lectins, i.e. that most of them we have adapted to or can render them harmless by proper cooking. Soy lectins, however, are a problem for many people, myself included, since they are so new to the human diet. It may be that humans will develop more of a symbiosis with the bacteria that are used in soy fermentation, but that could take generations, couldn't it? But who knows, there are good probiotics for milk, as found in yoghurt. Maybe there will be some for soy - food science is still in its infancy.
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Re: Bacteria having a human experience

Postby zetreque on September 6th, 2017, 12:39 pm 

Still wrong, people can have underlying inflammation and digestional problems that go unnoticed. Food Intollerances go unnoticed. Routine IGG testing even with false positives can save millions of people from suffering. For me it was literally a life saving test I wish I would have done sooner.

Food science is in the dark ages right now and doctors like Gundry, while still have some bad wording as I said and a lot of knowledge to gain are finally shedding light on this subject and should not be dismissed.

PS: I love peanuts, and they don't show up on IGG tests for me, but they are still a problem at only the very very slight conscious level. I have routinely tested this over and over again.
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Re: Bacteria having a human experience

Postby Watson on September 7th, 2017, 1:06 pm 

I just read this morning about the 7 benefits of beer.
Even if six of them are wrong, I'm good.
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Re: Bacteria having a human experience

Postby zetreque on September 14th, 2017, 11:47 pm 

Here is a new one just posted. Kinda boring at the start.

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